165: Glenn Behrman - Unmasking Hype, The Real Economics of Indoor Farming

Harry Duran 00:00:00:

So, Glenn Berman, founder and president of CEA Advisors, thank you so much for joining me on the vertical farming podcast.

Glenn Behrman 00:00:06:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Harry Duran 00:00:09:

Where are you calling in from?

Glenn Behrman 00:00:10:

I live outside of Dallas.

Harry Duran 00:00:12:

Okay. You born and raised there?

Glenn Behrman 00:00:15:

No, I'm from New York.

Harry Duran 00:00:17:

Okay. What part of New York?

Glenn Behrman 00:00:19:

New York City. There's only one part of New York, New York.

Harry Duran 00:00:23:

I grew up in Yonkers and.

Glenn Behrman 00:00:25:

Oh, okay.

Harry Duran 00:00:26:

Yeah, I've lived in East Village, Brooklyn, Upper east side. So I consider myself definitely a New Yorker.

Glenn Behrman 00:00:33:

I still have a community garden that I started in New York 20, 30 years ago. In the East Village.

Harry Duran 00:00:39:

Wow.

Glenn Behrman 00:00:40:

On 11th Street.

Harry Duran 00:00:41:

Wow. When's the last time you've been down?

Glenn Behrman 00:00:44:

Yeah. One of the few community gardens that remain in New York.

Harry Duran 00:00:49:

When's the last time you've been down there?

Glenn Behrman 00:00:51:

Oh, please, I'm a tourist. I mean, the closest I've gotten to New York is Kennedy Airport.

Harry Duran 00:00:57:

Yeah. What do you miss most about it?

Glenn Behrman 00:01:00:

Everything. I miss the food, I guess.

Harry Duran 00:01:05:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You miss certain things. I'm probably gonna go in July to visit my folks in Yonkers and then try to make a stop in the city. But last time I was there was for indoor ag tech when they had it in Times Square. And that was pretty.

Glenn Behrman 00:01:18:

Yeah, I remember that. I was. I think I was there for that. I stayed in a hotel right nearby. And I couldn't believe what. I couldn't believe it. I mean, I was flabbergasted at what times Grant had become.

Harry Duran 00:01:31:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:01:32:

Not in a good way.

Harry Duran 00:01:33:

No, Very Disneyfied. And it just. I remember taking the lift from my friend's house. I was staying with him on 23rd street to times Square every morning, and you just look out the window and everyone just looks like ants. And no one's smiling. No one's. Just that energy, that frenetic energy. I think when you're younger, it's sort of charges you up. Yeah. It is different.

Glenn Behrman 00:01:53:

I mean, I love living there, you know, and I had a very successful business and very well known business.

Harry Duran 00:01:59:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:01:59:

In New York. So, you know, it was interesting. I mean, it was an A lister.

Harry Duran 00:02:04:

Yeah. Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:02:04:

And you know, growing up there was pretty outrageous during the disco times.

Harry Duran 00:02:09:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:02:09:

All that kind of stuff, you know, so. But, you know, you can't really ever go home again.

Harry Duran 00:02:16:

That's true. That's interesting. Yeah. That's always a good perspective because you're trying to go back to the moment in time that you remember.

Glenn Behrman 00:02:22:

Finished.

Harry Duran 00:02:23:

Yeah. Yeah. So what was the impetus to get out of New York?

Glenn Behrman 00:02:28:

Well, I mean, it's actually a very interesting time in my life. You know, I had been. I started in the foliage industry in 1971.

Harry Duran 00:02:38:

Wow.

Glenn Behrman 00:02:39:

And over the next 25 years, I built a very, very big, very successful foliage distribution business. We were, you know, I was one of the pioneers. And. And I, at that time, at the, you know, at the end of the whole thing, I had nine stores. We had a wholesale division. We were importing and exporting. You know, I was a pioneer in that industry.

Harry Duran 00:03:06:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:03:06:

And I wound up selling the whole shooting match and retiring. 1994, it was okay. And I retired, and I found out that I met a guy and his father who were Vietnamese, and the embargo between the U.S. and Vietnam was lifted in 1994.

Harry Duran 00:03:30:

Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:03:31:

So I got on a plane and I flew to Saigon.

Harry Duran 00:03:34:

Wow.

Glenn Behrman 00:03:35:

And I spent the next year in Saigon trying to help them to rebuild the country.

Harry Duran 00:03:41:

Wow.

Glenn Behrman 00:03:43:

And to make a long story short, I wound up staying in Asia for the next 17 years.

Harry Duran 00:03:49:

Whoa.

Glenn Behrman 00:03:50:

And in 2000, I was the CEO of a dot com company in Asia called the Global Growthr, and, you know, raised a few million dollars, you know, at the peak of that whole, you.

Harry Duran 00:04:05:

Know, dot com craze, and wind up.

Glenn Behrman 00:04:11:

Living in Thailand, building a farm, starting a big orchid exporting business, and stayed there. And then in 2010, I was on an airplane coming home from China and I read about Plant Lab.

Harry Duran 00:04:30:

Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:04:32:

Doing the first research into indoor foaming.

Harry Duran 00:04:34:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:04:35:

So I flew home to Bangkok. I told my wife, I said, I'm going home. And I don't think I was home for a week. I was in Amsterdam because of my background. I just kind of knew that vertical farming was the future. And so I went to Plant Lab and I met with those guys and I tried to buy the US rights to their technology. This was 2010, and I was not able to make a deal with them. You know, they were suffering from the delusions of grandeur that a lot of people were suffering from in those early days.

Harry Duran 00:05:12:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:05:13:

But I got hooked, you know, and I wound up spending a lot of time in Holland and I met the people from Phillips and I, you know, did this and did that and went to all the shows and, you know, kind of got my feet wet in a whole new area of horticulture that, you know, with my background, it was all pretty not. It wasn't simple and it wasn't obvious, but it was interesting and it really made me a lot more curious. And then I read about aerophones, and I reached out to the late Ed Hallwood.

Harry Duran 00:05:55:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:05:56:

And I sent them an email and I told them who I was and you know, what my interest was and I said, look, I would like to learn more about this. And I spent the next year, and there was a 12 hour time difference between Bangkok and New Jersey.

Harry Duran 00:06:12:

And.

Glenn Behrman 00:06:14:

And I spent the next year, it was midnight my time and noon Ed Hallwood's time. And we spent hours on the phone just talking about all this.

Harry Duran 00:06:23:

Wow.

Glenn Behrman 00:06:25:

And after about a year of that, I told my wife, I said, listen, we have to go back to America. I can do this. So we flew back, we went to Miami, I bought two used containers, I went to a friend of mine who had probably built 75% of the greenhouses in Dade county. And I told them what I was going to do. And they had a big metal working factory and I designed the first two retainers. No idea what I was doing, Harry. Okay. I mean, you know, I didn't have any, although I had probably bought and sold and you know, was involved with maybe a couple of hundred million dollars worth of foliage material, but I had no idea what it meant to be a grower. And I learned about, you know, air and climate and LED lighting and irrigation and just all the, you know, control systems and oh man, it was an education. And burned up a ton of money. Made any mistake that anybody could possibly make. And after about three years, I finally sold the first protainer and I sold it to a guy and his wife who knew less than I did. And they were going to grow lettuce and sell it and you know, they were going to change the world and they were feed the growing population in 2050 and they were going to do everything that read about all this nonsense every day. And they failed. And I made a vow that I would never sell another retail container, that I would do nothing but build, you know, interesting, challenging projects that didn't depend on the sale of commodity crops and, you know, didn't sell to people who knew less than I did and that I would just concentrate on. I would surround myself with people, you know, to fill in the blanks that I had. Yeah, were rapidly disappearing because I was like a sponge and you know, I decided to just stick with my peers. And that's what I've done for the past 15 years.

Harry Duran 00:09:01:

What a fantastic journey you've been on since those early days in New York.

Glenn Behrman 00:09:05:

You're unbelievable. I mean, I have a life that people only dream about. Yeah, life that people only dream about. You know, I've had the highest highs and the Lowest lows, but I just kept on putting one foot in front of the other.

Harry Duran 00:09:19:

Yeah. So I'm just fascinated to hear, like, you know, with your perspective and having seen this, you know, from its infancy and realizing early on on what the. The value was in indoor farming. But having had your experiences, you know, decades before, I'm curious about your perspective now, because I entered it in 2020, which is basically the peak of the hype cycle of one of the hype cycles, and obviously tons of money coming in and lots of folks ending up bankrupt afterwards. So how do you see things and how do you see the cycle? It's been talked about a lot at some of the conferences we've been at recently, but I get the sense that you provide some bit of realism for folks, you know, having been there and done that, when it comes to, like, expectations and where you see things going for this industry, I've always had a.

Glenn Behrman 00:10:06:

Realistic attitude about it. And, you know, it's funny, because 15 years ago when I made certain comments, I was an asshole, okay? And now I'm a guru, you know, because, listen, I've always been a businessman, you know, and I've always had a cash flow, positive attitude. And I've always, from day one, been sinkless with, you know, nobody ever gave me anything. You know what I mean? Whatever I've ever done, you know, if I made money, it was my money, and if I lost money, it was my money.

Harry Duran 00:10:42:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:10:43:

And, you know, I started off the same as everybody. You know, I thought that indoor farming was going to change the world. And again, I thought that, yeah, you know, we're gonna be. The population's gonna grow, and we're gonna have to, you know, find ways to. To feed those people. And I thought that nonprofits and NGOs, and, you know, every. You know, I had this interesting kind of a shotgun approach early on. You know, I was willing to try anything. I didn't know what was right, you know, but I knew that container farming or indoor farming had a place. I just didn't know what that place was, you know, and we still don't know what that place is. Okay. And it's, you know, 15 years later. But, you know, I tried each thing, and I learned step by step that, you know, it's a business just like any other business. It's not easy. You know, there's a lot of. A lot of dreamers, you know, when there was easy money. And, you know, I think that the biggest enemy of vertical farming was a very easy money.

Harry Duran 00:12:00:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:12:01:

Silicone Valley and social media, Okay. I think that if left unchecks, they'll destroy this industry, you know? But at the same time, I think that people learn the social media lesson through Freight Fulham because they spend 10,000amonth to create a community that was really just a way of holding their buyers hostage. And when it collapsed, you know what I mean, hundreds of people were left holding the bag. And I think that, you know, it started off with good intentions and I think it went to the toilet. You know, I think that the promises that they made to people and the way they went about it, you know what I mean, psychologically, was perfect.

Harry Duran 00:12:57:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:12:58:

But from a. From having a conscience and from a integrity standpoint, it was disgusting.

Harry Duran 00:13:07:

So do you think, Glenn, the. You mentioned that. It's just interesting that you mentioned the social media. So is it this perspective of like telling a story that looks good on paper or it's flashy, but it's really not really what's happening behind closed doors?

Glenn Behrman 00:13:20:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that 30% or maybe even higher, I think that 30% of the businesses or the companies in this industry are nothing more than a website. That it's just some guy sitting in a room. You know what I mean? With a flashy website.

Harry Duran 00:13:37:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:13:38:

You know, it's like when I was young and somebody went into business, the first thing they did was have business cards made up.

Harry Duran 00:13:45:

Yep. Remember that?

Glenn Behrman 00:13:47:

Okay. The first thing you did, okay. You know, you had the idea, you went straight to the printer and had a business card made. Okay. Today, when you have an idea, the first thing you do is go to the web designer.

Harry Duran 00:13:58:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:13:59:

You know what I mean? And if you're like me and you read the headline and then you decide that. That it's time to do a little research, then you start to read where they say, we're going to do this, we're planning to do that, we're thinking about becoming the number one this and the top that, and we're a thought leader and we're. And all this buzzword bullshit and it's, you know, it's just like, you know, it's just an evolution. In other words, it's the. It's like all potatoes, no leaf.

Harry Duran 00:14:36:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:14:38:

You know, and it's just the 2025 version, you know what I mean? Of, you know, it's. Listen, everybody has ideas. You know what I mean? Listen, I have 10 ideas a day. You know what I mean?

Harry Duran 00:14:51:

Same.

Glenn Behrman 00:14:51:

But I discard, you know, I think about them and I discard today's 10, and I deal with tomorrow's 10, you know, but it's just not real, you know, I mean, listen, you're better off, you know, what's wrong with having a nice business that you enjoy that's small, that you make a good living, that, you know, you have a smile on your face and, you know, I remember when I was in the foliage business and I was making a fortune. Harry, I'm talking about, you know, 40 years ago, making serious money, okay? And I remember, you know, I lived in a beautiful home, I drove a brand new Mercedes, I traveled all over the world, I did whatever I wanted to do. And I had all my friends, they were in the garment center, they were doctors, they were lawyers, they wore a suit and tie, you know, I mean, they would dentists, you know. And me, I wore, you know, Bruno madly shoes and jeans and a hoodie, you know what I mean? And I was making a fortune. And, you know, I laughed at all, you know what I mean? Because I had this unbelievable business that, you know, I mean, I spent a week, every three weeks traveling through Homestead, Florida, buying plants.

Harry Duran 00:16:12:

Hmm.

Glenn Behrman 00:16:12:

I mean, think about it for a minute.

Harry Duran 00:16:14:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:16:14:

You know what I mean? You know, the sun is shining, the birds are singing, you know what I mean?

Harry Duran 00:16:19:

Every day.

Glenn Behrman 00:16:21:

Yeah. It's hot. It's beautiful. You know, involved with farmers, you know what I mean? And people of the land, you know, everybody with mud on their boots and dirt under their nails.

Harry Duran 00:16:32:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:16:33:

You know what I mean? And, you know, sit down and have a cold drink, you know, under the palm trees or under the lime or mangoes or avocados.

Harry Duran 00:16:43:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:16:43:

You know, it was the greatest life in the world, you know, And. And, you know, I mean, people, you know, they all want to be flashy and have, you know, valuations. When I was in business, there was no such thing as valuation. You know, you worked your ass off and you made a good living.

Harry Duran 00:17:03:

It's either profitable or it's not.

Glenn Behrman 00:17:05:

Yeah, right. You either profitable, you work for someone else.

Harry Duran 00:17:08:

Yeah, yeah. So how did you get.

Glenn Behrman 00:17:09:

Very simple.

Harry Duran 00:17:10:

How did you get into foliage?

Glenn Behrman 00:17:13:

It's a long story. Listen, I mean, you know, I don't tell my. I came from a very, very, very rough, dysfunctional childhood. There was drugs involved, there was. I had all kinds of problems. Okay. You know, if you would have looked at me then, you know what I mean? Even myself. Okay. You know, I can't imagine what I. How I've turned my life around. No. And I mean, I had everything going against everything and I had no money. I mean, I was a classic, you Know, you could make a movie out of my life, how bad it was. And I just decided one day to sell plants. I mean, that simple. You know, I just saw this indoor plant boom coming.

Harry Duran 00:18:09:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:18:09:

You know what I mean? I borrowed $5,000 and opened the store in New Haven, Connecticut.

Harry Duran 00:18:15:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:18:15:

You know, by Yale University. And like I say, within the next 25 years, you know what I mean? I built it into a multimillion dollar business.

Harry Duran 00:18:27:

Wow.

Glenn Behrman 00:18:28:

But I had everything going against me, and I think that all of the energy that I. And all of the effort that I put into just staying alive in the early days, I just put it into business and I worked and I learned and I asked questions, and I just put one foot in front of the other. I mean, now in retrospect, you know, I'm sober for over 35 years.

Harry Duran 00:18:55:

Congrats.

Glenn Behrman 00:18:55:

They haven't touched a drink, haven't had a drug, haven't, you know, done anything. And I've lived the complete opposite. And every day I spend, I try to make up for the bad things that I've done, even though I kind of forgive myself because I had to survive. Yeah, of course, I just have a different ethos, you know, I'm very focused on integrity and honesty and gratitude.

Harry Duran 00:19:22:

Yeah, those are important traits, for sure.

Glenn Behrman 00:19:24:

Yeah. And they're very important. And they guide a lot of my decisions and a lot of my thinking. And, you know, and I try to be helpful and supportive, and I'm not, you know, I'm full. I'm not empty.

Harry Duran 00:19:36:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:19:37:

You know, so I try to give it away.

Harry Duran 00:19:40:

So when you started CEA Advisors, what types of folks were you helping and what type of problems were you solving in the beginning that are. And how are they different than the type of work you're doing now?

Glenn Behrman 00:19:50:

It's not different. In other words, I have a business approach to indoor farming, you know, in other words. And sometimes my service is just telling somebody, don't do it.

Harry Duran 00:20:00:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:20:01:

You know what I mean? Sometimes. And I can do that.

Harry Duran 00:20:04:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:20:04:

You know what I mean? And I feel good about it, you know, like, yeah, I'm sorry that I couldn't make any money, you know what I mean? But I also want to sleep good tonight, you know, and, you know, I've been involved in a lot of. I've helped a lot of people in the industry, you know, some I've gotten paid from, and some I just did it because it was the right thing to do.

Harry Duran 00:20:24:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:20:24:

We build containers. We. I've been able to. To take all of the experiences and all of the, you know, different lessons that I've learned in life, you know, and put them into a business kind of a context, you know, and. And I bring a lot to the table. You know, I have a really, really good read on things. You know, when most people see the headline, you know, that's what they digest. And when I see the headline, that's the beginning of my research to find out what's really going on.

Harry Duran 00:21:01:

Dig deeper.

Glenn Behrman 00:21:02:

Yeah, much deeper. You know what I mean? And you know, it's like before I talk to somebody on the phone or, you know, before I talk to a client, I try to find out who they are and you know what I mean? You know, what can I really bring to the table?

Harry Duran 00:21:17:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:21:18:

So I see things very clearly. I mean, but really clear. You know, sometimes I even surprise myself because, you know, I get it. But then something happens to confirm that. Yeah, I really do get it, you know, and you know, look, I think it's a great business and I think there's some really good people in this industry. And I think that, you know, there's a little too much gullibility, you know, and a little bit too much, you know, people that are impressed with themselves, you know, And I think it's a tough balance, you know what I mean? You know, and I think that it's just, you know, look, remember something, you're mainly dealing with commodity crops.

Harry Duran 00:22:09:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:22:10:

You're dealing with, you know, high volume, low margin. People don't realize that this is a very, very relationship based business, you know, and the established leafy greens producers, if they she a vertical farm operator, and I'm talking about a vertical farm operator. I'm not talking about a greenhouse operator. Greenhouse is a greenhouse.

Harry Duran 00:22:42:

Sure, sure.

Glenn Behrman 00:22:42:

Okay. Although now all of a sudden, greenhouses are high tech.

Harry Duran 00:22:46:

We're getting hybrid.

Glenn Behrman 00:22:48:

Yeah, that's a whole other story. You know what I mean? Greenhouses are greenhouses. But, you know, I think that the established California and Arizona, you know, leafy greens producers, if they felt that indoor farming was a threat, they would crush them. Yeah. Okay. You know what would it stop? Somebody From California with 100,000 acres from, you know, going to Publix and putting romaine up for 99 cents for a week?

Harry Duran 00:23:21:

Yeah, yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:23:22:

You know what I mean?

Harry Duran 00:23:23:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:23:24:

You know, let's face it. So obviously, although it is a category, you know what I mean, it's still not, you know, a high enough percentage in the produce aisle to really mean anything.

Harry Duran 00:23:38:

So what is that? Just a perspective that needs to change? Is it consumers Awareness and education about the difference in the products or you feel like it's just always going to be two different camps and the people who know, know and appreciate it.

Glenn Behrman 00:23:52:

Yeah, I think it's, you know, in other words, listen, you know, I wouldn't pay extra for organic. I wouldn't pay extra for local.

Harry Duran 00:24:00:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:24:01:

You know, I mean, you know, even me, I mean, I, you know, I should have some allegiance to my industry. But I buy Texas grown three in a bag. Romaine.

Harry Duran 00:24:11:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:24:12:

I mean, you know, when I. But you see, when I go into the supermarket and I go to a supermarket in every country, everywhere in the world, as soon as I get to where I'm going, one of my first stops is always the supermarket and looking at the produce aisle just to see who's who and what's what and the pricing and the quality and the, you know, just to get a feel for that market. But that visual is also an indicator of the success of the people in that market. Okay. You know, I remember when I looked at the Agricult in France, was it in Monopri? I didn't say Bon Marche, but it wasn't. It was in Monopri and in a supermarket chain there and they had the little half ounce, you know, herbs, prepackaged herbs. And each item there was like 12 packs, packages, none missing. Yeah, okay.

Harry Duran 00:25:17:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:25:17:

You know, and they had like, you know, 12 heads of their lettuce and maybe one was missing from the display.

Harry Duran 00:25:25:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:25:26:

And a month later they were bankrupt.

Harry Duran 00:25:28:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:25:28:

You know, and it's the same thing with K and it's the same thing with, with every one of them. You know what I mean? Listen, as much as I love Gotham Greens, all their products were in the Kroger near me and their prices were all reduced. Yeah, yeah, that's not a good thing. You know, those that are turning the statistics, you know, that I pay attention.

Harry Duran 00:25:54:

That makes sense. Yeah. And so how do you think about this? You know, if they're, if someone is consulting you and let's stick with leafy greens. They're looking to get in this business. Obviously they've seen the graveyard of companies that have tried and failed. Is there a model that works or is there something like that hasn't been thought through enough yet to how this could get some traction?

Glenn Behrman 00:26:14:

Harry, it's all a giant spreadsheet. Okay. Every facet of this industry is an Excel spreadsheet.

Harry Duran 00:26:23:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:26:23:

Okay. On the left hand side you put all of the different exigencies. Okay. Whether it, you know, price, climate or, you know, What I mean, whatever issues are, you know, market share, etc. Etc. Okay. And then you have to make adjustments along the right hand side to get to that sweet spot.

Harry Duran 00:26:45:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:26:46:

Okay. Energy cost, labor, you know, sophistication of the market. What are the people eat.

Harry Duran 00:26:53:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:26:53:

I mean, you know, is there any demand there?

Harry Duran 00:26:55:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:26:56:

You know, it's a home equation, you know what I mean? That consists of a lot of different things. But you know, the truth of the matter is that this whole industry, in other words, on the table is not a straight line.

Harry Duran 00:27:13:

No.

Glenn Behrman 00:27:14:

You understand there's 50 different stops along that way that can be improved on or where there's areas for expertise. You know, in other words, if somebody decides they want to get involved with indoor farming, they don't have to be a grower. They could design control systems, they could, you know, get interested in irrigation, they could get interested in packaging, they could, you know what I mean? In other words. But people don't really, they don't analyze the whole. They don't see the whole picture.

: Yeah, yeah. You know, so when you, with the work you've done with grow tainer, how has that, the container shipping container business evolved over the years and what are people looking for now and how are you helping them?

Glenn Behrman 00:28:02:

Well, you know. Right. I'm going through the same. Well, let me say this. The past 15 years, I, as I said earlier, I sold one retail container. I vowed to never sell another one.

Harry Duran 00:28:18:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:28:18:

Okay. I built a very successful, very healthy business doing commercial container installations for my industry peers. Okay. I built for Driscoll, I built for beneficial insectary. I built for ball horticulture, you know, but not for production research for some sort. I've been able to give them what they need to solve a specific problem. Problem.

Harry Duran 00:28:45:

Okay, okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:28:46:

Or to increase their business or to do something to help their core competency. Yeah, okay. Why? Because I understand their business and I understand mine and I know what I could do for them and I know what I tell them I can't do.

Harry Duran 00:29:00:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:29:01:

Okay. And if I don't know, I know who to call.

Harry Duran 00:29:03:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:29:04:

Okay. But you know, I'm at a point right now with this great phone demise and understand something. I offer a product that I can't sell, I have to wait for somebody to come to me to buy it, you understand? A Tuscan container. I can't call somebody and say, hey, do you need this? Do you need that? You know what I mean? You know, I would be nothing but on the phone all day.

Harry Duran 00:29:35:

Sure.

Glenn Behrman 00:29:35:

You know what I mean? I have to wait for somebody to say, oh, I need to try this. Maybe I'll try a container, and they'll get on the phone with me and we'll talk about it, and if it makes sense, we'll move forward, you know, And I got a lot of really, really interesting projects in the hopper, you know, but right now, with the demise of great phones, you know, I wonder if I want to get into retail, you know what I mean? And I think about it, you know what I mean? And I think to myself, I don't necessarily agree with that style of growing.

Harry Duran 00:30:12:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:30:13:

And I don't know if people will limit it because, I mean, I've never agreed with it. Okay. I think plants are, you know, crops are made to grow, you know, on a flat surface. You know, I've never. I think if God wanted them to grow sideways, no plant agriculture for the past thousand years would have been different. Okay? So I've never really seen that, to tell you the truth. And I don't know why people want it, except maybe because it was out there from somebody who made a lot of noise, who used social media, who created this, you know, this method of growing.

Harry Duran 00:30:58:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:30:59:

You know, like, I'll give you an example. You know, great farms made a lot of sales to schools.

Harry Duran 00:31:05:

Mm.

Glenn Behrman 00:31:07:

Personally, I think that was a tremendous disservice. Okay. Because if you want to teach kids how to grow, you have to teach them all different ways of growing so they decide which one is best for them.

Harry Duran 00:31:20:

Yeah, that's good point.

Glenn Behrman 00:31:20:

Okay. And every crop is different. You know what I mean? And it's. If it's an educational tool. A freight farm was not an educational, educational tool. Okay. Stephen Ritz is an educational tool.

Harry Duran 00:31:32:

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Glenn Behrman 00:31:33:

You follow me?

Harry Duran 00:31:34:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:31:35:

You know, but these are the kind of thoughts that go through my head. You know what I mean? But so if we build the schools, we're going to put every different type of growing method in there so that a kid get their hands dirty and learn and say, okay, this is the way. This is the method for me.

Harry Duran 00:31:54:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:31:55:

Okay. You know, so I don't know how. In other words, before freight forms, who grew sideways?

Harry Duran 00:32:04:

It's a couple.

Glenn Behrman 00:32:04:

Nobody.

Harry Duran 00:32:05:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:32:07:

You know, I remember indoor phones of America. Did you ever hear of them?

Harry Duran 00:32:11:

No, I hadn't. No.

Glenn Behrman 00:32:13:

They had that, you know, sideways clear wall kind of deal.

Harry Duran 00:32:18:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:32:18:

And they were going to do this and they were going to do that, and they were going to change the world. And all of a sudden, their websites, as of so. As of such and such a Date we have ceased operation.

Harry Duran 00:32:29:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:32:30:

You know, and they talked bad about everyone else and, you know, they were in the business for 15 minutes, pinning gone in 15 minutes. And they were industry experts, you know.

Harry Duran 00:32:43:

So when you go to these conferences and we bumped into each other at Indoor Icon, which is one of my favorites, what do you look for and what do you see that's changing? My quick take on it was people are a bit more realistic and sober about what's been happening in the past few years. I'm curious what your take is on and what you hear from these conversations.

Glenn Behrman 00:33:06:

Well, I think that this past two years it's definitely settled down a bit. You know, I think that the lack of easy money is a good thing.

Harry Duran 00:33:20:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:33:21:

You know, and you know, Harry, I'll tell you something. I have a lot of conversations with a lot of people, from business people to academia, you know, all kinds of interesting people. And I was talking to a friend of mine who's a professor in Australia of indoor farming, and I said to him, I said, you know, now that the dust is settled and the VC model has been proven not to work in vertical farming, I said, the first thing you should ask your students is, why are you here? Why are you in this class? Because if you're in it for fast money, you know what I mean, and all the stuff that was two years ago or five years ago, then you're in the wrong class, you know, so what I've heard is a lot more optimism, a lot less hype.

Harry Duran 00:34:28:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:34:30:

I think that one of the problems is that there's still a whole group of new world, like suppliers and vendors and people trying to capitalize on this industry that have not fully connected the dots. They don't know enough about the industry that they're in to really be as effective as they could be.

Harry Duran 00:34:58:

Yeah. Or they're coming in having maybe come at the time when they saw like the wave or the bubble and trying to understand if this was something they could capitalize on. I think about those students, if they came in and started studying this because they saw the dollar signs in 2020, they got a big wake up call.

Glenn Behrman 00:35:15:

Right.

Harry Duran 00:35:15:

You know, a couple years later.

Glenn Behrman 00:35:17:

Yeah. You know, in other words, there's a lot of like, you know, and for me, you know, if somebody asks me, you know, what about my IP or what about my product, you know, how do you know? What do you think about it?

Harry Duran 00:35:34:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:35:34:

You know, the problem with me is I give them a completely honest answer, you know what I mean? And, you know, I think that People are blind, you know what I mean? They don't want. Want to hear what, you know, they. Some people don't really want to hear the truth.

Harry Duran 00:35:51:

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Glenn Behrman 00:35:52:

You know, you know, I mean, listen, I got, me personally, I got nothing invested in being right.

Harry Duran 00:36:01:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:36:02:

You know what I mean? But you asked me a question. I'm going to give you an honest answer and hope that it helps. You know, I still think with this industry has got a lot of growing up to do, but I don't think it's as out of balance as it has been.

Harry Duran 00:36:19:

Yeah. You know, so when you have conversations with folks, are you seeing folks or businesses or companies or even people, individuals that are doing it right, that are thinking it through the right way and asking the right questions?

Glenn Behrman 00:36:35:

No, I think they're doing better than they were.

Harry Duran 00:36:38:

Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:36:39:

I mean, to be perfectly honest with you.

Harry Duran 00:36:41:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:36:42:

You know what I mean? I think that, you know, if somebody builds a product, you know, I guess, you know, as I've watched the evolution of this industry, I've seen people go into the LED business, then the LED business got two crown. I've seen people go into control system.

Harry Duran 00:37:07:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:37:08:

Control systems got too crowded.

Harry Duran 00:37:10:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:37:11:

Now the new one is robotics and automation and AI.

Harry Duran 00:37:16:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:37:16:

Okay. But the truth of the matter is, is that robotics. Yeah. I mean, it definitely serves, you know, it has a place in the industry.

Harry Duran 00:37:26:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:37:28:

But it's not the end all be all automation, not the end all be all. You know, why do you need automation, for example, in a country where somebody makes, you know, $30 a day?

Harry Duran 00:37:38:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:37:39:

So in other words. But the people that are in automation think it works everywhere and it should apply at every case and it makes economic sense in every, you know, alliteration. But it's not true.

Harry Duran 00:37:52:

I mean, it's that saying that when all you have is a hammer and everything looks like a nail.

Glenn Behrman 00:37:57:

You know, I mean, and it's sad because, you know, a lot of these people are nice people. They're smart, they're.

Harry Duran 00:38:04:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:38:04:

You know what I mean? But they just don't do their homework.

Harry Duran 00:38:08:

What I love is that you got your, you know, you basically cut your chops, you know, just from trying and failing and trying and failing and succeeding. And definitely the thick skin and the ability to tell people what they need to hear. I mean, I hear that New Yorker come through you loud and clear. And sometimes people are like, they want to. They want their ego stroked and they want to hear what they think is the right thing. And it's sometimes really harsh to Be told something that you know in your heart is true and your ego is not allowing you to, like, listen to what this person.

Glenn Behrman 00:38:40:

Don't listen. That's exactly right. I mean, people don't listen, you know, I mean, they want to hear what they want to hear.

Harry Duran 00:38:47:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:38:48:

You know, I mean, like, Bill, like. I mean, I'm just thinking about some specific instances, you know what I mean, where people, you know, nice to meet you, but we've heard so much about you. What do you think about product? And I'm like, I think it's great, but.

Harry Duran 00:39:04:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:39:04:

You know what I mean? It's not gonna wind up the way you think it's gonna wind up, you know, And I don't wanna. I don't wanna be arrogant and I don't wanna be obnoxious. You know, it's like, it's like over the past 10 or 15 years, I've seen a million of these little desktop herb growing, you know, I mean, I've seen a million of them, of course, you know, and, you know, and then you get some guy calls me and I, oh, look at this beautiful desktop herb growing, you know, apparatus that I built.

Harry Duran 00:39:43:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:39:44:

And whatever. And you're like, yeah, but 100 of them before you wind up on the cloth, in the closet, on the shelf, you know, not one has ever succeeded.

Harry Duran 00:39:54:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:39:55:

You know, and even Aerogarden, the one from. I forgot who it's from. But even the one that was successful for a few years is now 2999. You know what I mean? Where it was 129 99.

Harry Duran 00:40:09:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:40:10:

You know, people think that they build a, you know, a vertical, you know, like that fits in the place where dishwasher goes.

Harry Duran 00:40:17:

Yep. The appliances.

Glenn Behrman 00:40:19:

Yeah. It's nonsense. You know, people are not going to, you know, they're going to go to the supermarket.

Harry Duran 00:40:26:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:40:26:

No, and I mean, that was a very interesting lesson for me. I did the first project for a supermarket. You know, we bought Groteina behind the supermarket.

Harry Duran 00:40:37:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:40:38:

And we sold the material inside. And I, that day, I thought that was it. I had struck gold, you know, And I figured to myself, I'm going to put a container behind every supermarket in the country.

Harry Duran 00:40:50:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:40:52:

I quickly found out that out of 25,000 supermarkets in America, maybe there were 500 of them could do what I did, you know, and then I found out that out of those 500, maybe 100 had the right access and egress and six capabilities for it to work.

Harry Duran 00:41:14:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:41:16:

You know, and those are the kind of lessons that I'VE learned, you know, it's, you know, I mean, I don't know, it seems like everybody, you know, everybody thinks this industry is one size fits all.

Harry Duran 00:41:33:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:41:34:

And it's just not. You know what I mean? You know, I tried to position grotainers and indoor farming for the cosmetics industry. Turns out they have no interest in it. Okay. You know, I tried to. I thought I had this brainstorm to use containers for disaster. Really?

Harry Duran 00:41:56:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:41:57:

Figured, oh, I'm going to make a fortune, you know, FEMA will buy a thousand.

Harry Duran 00:42:02:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:42:03:

No interest in it. I mean, I try to approach some pharmaceutical manufacturer, you know what I mean? Because I figured there was some botanical products that, you know, like some tree that grows in the Amazon.

Harry Duran 00:42:17:

Yeah. Extracts. Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:42:20:

They have no interest in it. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah. If you build a farm and you go to the Amazon and you find the tree and you grow it and you spend millions of dollars on testing and all the, you know, and then take the results and go to the lab and say, okay, I have this product that's X dollars a ton. How many times do you want. They're like, oh, fine, I'll take 100 tons.

Harry Duran 00:42:48:

Sure. But you got to do, you got to do the work, right?

Glenn Behrman 00:42:51:

I'm not doing all the work, spending all the money.

Harry Duran 00:42:54:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:42:54:

You know what I mean? For something that you might buy.

Harry Duran 00:42:58:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:42:59:

You know, it worked that way.

Harry Duran 00:43:01:

So where are you seeing the most opportunities now in terms of like product, market fit, you know, crops, what's. Anything that's catching your eye?

Glenn Behrman 00:43:09:

I don't know. Yeah, honestly, I don't know. You know, I mean, like I say from my own experience, you know, I mean, listen, remember something, Harry, A grote or a container farm, okay? It's extremely limited.

Harry Duran 00:43:25:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:43:26:

Okay. You can only grow a shallow root crop because if you grow a deep root crop, you lose the vertical economy. Okay. If you like, you take wasabi for example. Unbelievable crop. Unbelievable crop with tremendous potential in a container. Tremendous potential. Okay. But the best you're going to do is cut a three year growing cycle down to about a year or a year and a half.

Harry Duran 00:43:59:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:00:

Okay. You got no income for a year or a year and a half. You know what I mean? Nobody's going to do it.

Harry Duran 00:44:05:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:05:

You know, except somebody who's laser focused on wasabi. You know, we're doing projects for wasabi for research.

Harry Duran 00:44:13:

Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:14:

We're doing projects for Japan for rice, for research.

Harry Duran 00:44:18:

Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:19:

You know, but it's strictly a research project. You know, I have people Call me every day for containers for strawberry.

Harry Duran 00:44:28:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:29:

And I told them it can't make any money. And they're all, but what about Russia in the winter? Well then go build it in Russia. You know.

Harry Duran 00:44:38:

Why?

Glenn Behrman 00:44:39:

I don't understand. You know, we go to the supermarket right now we're paying for Driscoll, beautiful big strawberries, $3 a pound.

Harry Duran 00:44:47:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:49:

You know, which means that the farmer is getting a dollar a pound.

Harry Duran 00:44:52:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:44:53:

I mean, think about it, you know what I mean? So think I'm going to build a strawberry container and then when it fails, you're going to blame me. No way.

Harry Duran 00:45:03:

All comes back to that spreadsheet.

Glenn Behrman 00:45:05:

Yeah, it all comes back to that spreadsheet, you know, and if, you know, I mean, but people, they, oh, strawberries, $22 a pound in Stockholm in February. Okay, but what about July? Yeah, you know, I mean, and I don't know, I mean, people just don't get it, you know, Listen, I don't know, to go back to the whole core conversation here. I don't know, if I build a $99,000 freight farms wannabe, will it sell?

Harry Duran 00:45:46:

That's the big question. Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:45:47:

You know what I mean? I could do it tomorrow.

Harry Duran 00:45:49:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:45:49:

You know what I mean? And I could spend 10,000amonth on advertising and do all the same stuff that they did. Do I really want to do that?

Harry Duran 00:46:00:

Does the market with the market bear something like that? I guess really is looking deep, you know, having a close look at, you know, why they failed. And I think you definitely outlined some of the key points. You know, focus on selling something through social. That wasn't really the true story. But also at the end of the day, the economics of like, did you have a product that the market wanted? Clearly there was some disconnect there. And I think those questions are still being asked.

Glenn Behrman 00:46:23:

You know, people, I mean, I talk to people operate freight farms, you know, and I love the way everybody jumped in to help them, you know, I mean, the people in Canada, you know, that what they don't tell you is that the guys in Canada, their containers are $300,000, you know, I mean, but they're going to support the freight bomb community. What are they going to do? You know, I mean, you know, send them a box of Kleenex, you know.

Harry Duran 00:46:53:

I mean.

Glenn Behrman 00:46:55:

You know, but everybody, oh, we're here to support the freightfall community. What exactly are you doing? Yeah, you know, having somebody, you know, listen to you. Do you lament, you know, listen, I think that like I say, I think the way they Went sh was disgusting. But those are the people that really need the helping hand, you know what I mean? The one lost their deposits.

Harry Duran 00:47:25:

And those are. These are, I mean, people just getting started, you know, small farms and probably putting their life savings into trying this out and then probably, you know, it's a big hit for them.

Glenn Behrman 00:47:35:

Yeah. I mean, that's a terrible thing. You know what I mean? That's a really terrible thing. You know, but you know, the truth of the matter is that farming in a container is a tough business. Okay? It works, but nobody's going to get rich at it. It's like, you know, I've always said it, it's too big for a farmer's market and too small for a supermarket market.

Harry Duran 00:47:59:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:48:00:

Well, but the truth of the matter is that, you know, like people call us for microgreens containers.

Harry Duran 00:48:07:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:48:07:

You know, and I tell people, I won't sell you a 40 foot microgreens container because you'll never be able to sell what you produce. Yeah, I'll sell you 20 footer, but I won't sell you a 40.

Harry Duran 00:48:19:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:48:20:

You know, we're doing very well with tissue culture containers.

Harry Duran 00:48:24:

Okay.

Glenn Behrman 00:48:25:

Doing very well with, you know, with, like I say, some of the custom projects that we're working on, you know, and you know, we're getting a lot of traction with different government, you know, food security based, you know, research and you know, a lot of interesting stuff, you know, that listen, if I'm challenged, I'm doing this for over 50 years, okay? And I'm surrounded by the top of the line.

Harry Duran 00:48:51:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:48:52:

And I mean really knowledgeable, clever, smart, you know, that put the pieces together and understand and you know, and we're all curious, you know what I mean? You know, really, you know, we're kiki about this whole thing. So I designed this really elaborate. I'm doing a project, I'm not going to say who it's for, but I'm doing a project for the largest potato grower in the world. Oh, wow. Potatoes.

Harry Duran 00:49:21:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:49:22:

Okay. And so we had a big conversation this morning about humidity, you know, and about propagation and all that. And I designed this unbelievable propagation system that nobody's really done because it works. It distributes the humidity evenly in a multi level system. Okay. It's Israeli technology and it very, very cool.

Harry Duran 00:49:48:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:49:48:

No, and so I had a whole meeting with their plant science people this morning, you know what I mean? And you know, we're integrating VPD into the containers and you know, we're doing some really interesting stuff for them. You Know that. And all of us got off the phone this morning and, you know, and like, we debriefed afterwards.

Harry Duran 00:50:08:

Yeah. Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:50:08:

We were like, wow, you know what I mean? These people are professional plant scientists.

Harry Duran 00:50:13:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:50:14:

You know what I mean? And we're, you know, builders. And. And you combine the two and, man, what a great conversation.

Harry Duran 00:50:23:

That's when it gets fun.

Glenn Behrman 00:50:24:

Yeah. And it becomes real fun.

Harry Duran 00:50:26:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:50:27:

And, you know, and then, you know, it's the easiest thing to say. I don't know, what do you guys think? You know, and I'm writing down everything they're saying, you know, I should have recorded the conversation.

Harry Duran 00:50:38:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:50:38:

But meanwhile, between what I figured out and what they figured out and. But you know what I mean, we came up with a perfect system that's, you know, but, you know, the, you know, I just don't know why with freight farms or without freight bombs, why the expectations or the potential of this thing has changed. You know what I mean? Like I said before, I don't know if I want to build a vertical, a horizontal system. You know what I mean? I think I'm better off to stay with something that offers more flexibility and more, you know, customization.

Harry Duran 00:51:21:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:51:21:

More opportunity.

Harry Duran 00:51:22:

Yeah. It sounds like the custom projects like the one you just mentioned with the potatoes is where, like, you get to use your brain power and all your decades of experience combined with new technologies and now you're actually problem solving now.

Glenn Behrman 00:51:34:

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, and I call, you know, like the technical support people at one of the component manufacturers, and I'm like, well, look, this is who I am. This is what I want to do. You know, you're an expert on this product and what do you think about my idea? And they're like, wow, you know, I'm doing this for 30 years. I never thought of that. You know what I mean?

Harry Duran 00:51:58:

Yeah, that's great. You know, you got to bring in people from different disciplines sometimes. Sometimes people, if they're just in one lane, they don't think outside their lane. And.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:08:

Yeah, really, someone like you, I spend more time thinking outside the body. Listen, I'd like to do a double decker container.

Harry Duran 00:52:14:

Oh, yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:15:

16 foot. Yeah. Take the floor out in the ceiling. You know what I mean? Have one 16 foot high chamber.

Harry Duran 00:52:21:

Yeah. No one's done that yet.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:22:

Never.

Harry Duran 00:52:23:

Huh. Wonder what the challenges would be around that.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:27:

But nothing really. I mean, it's just. It's very easy to engineer it. You know what I mean? I mean, you can do it.

Harry Duran 00:52:33:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:34:

And it would be very interesting. But you know, at this point right now, I'm getting lazy, you know, I mean, I'm, you know, I mean, I'm just really doing stuff that I enjoy.

Harry Duran 00:52:45:

That's great.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:46:

And again, you know, I turn away more business than I accept, you know, and I just, you know, listen, I just want to enjoy it.

Harry Duran 00:52:56:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:52:57:

You know, I want to know what I know. And one of the things that I'm learning is what to stay away from.

Harry Duran 00:53:04:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:53:05:

You know, and it's interesting, you know, and I feel bad for these people that are struggling, you know, that they went into it with good intentions. Yeah. You know, I mean, I hate to hear of a guy who has to sell Monday through Thursday so he pay people on Friday.

Harry Duran 00:53:23:

Yeah, yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:53:24:

You know, that's not why you go into business.

Harry Duran 00:53:29:

You know, they've created their own version of the hamster wheel.

Glenn Behrman 00:53:32:

Yeah. Really. I mean, it's a shame. You know what I mean? I hate hearing.

Harry Duran 00:53:35:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:53:37:

You know, look, I mean, I think that, I hate to say it, but I don't know if the industry has really learned anything from freight farms demise. Okay. I think that, you know, people are very good at making excuses.

Harry Duran 00:53:57:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:53:58:

You know, and just guiding the conversation back to where they wanted to go.

Harry Duran 00:54:05:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:54:05:

You know, and I'll tell you something, one of the things that I've really noticed is who hasn't commented on Great Fall is more important than the people that have.

Harry Duran 00:54:19:

Hmm. That's interesting.

Glenn Behrman 00:54:21:

Okay. And if you take all the LinkedIn superstars, okay. And you go back through all of the freight farms and Smallhold and all the high profile popular kids bankruptcies, you'll see who didn't comment is more important than who did.

Harry Duran 00:54:47:

That's interesting. Yeah. Lots to learn from. And I think it's interesting for you to have that perspective because I think most people are just focused on who's commenting. But then you to your point, like, you have to think about what's their ulterior motive if they have a company that's, that could benefit from them or they, you know, looking good so they could, you know, it's more of a marketing play at that point. Just like, hey, let's make sure we're in this conversation because they don't want to be left out.

Glenn Behrman 00:55:11:

Well, let's make sure we're not in that conversation.

Harry Duran 00:55:13:

Yeah. Yeah. So Glenn, I'd like to leave as we wrap up. Just I always leave a couple of minutes for. And you've got a lot of guidance for this industry, so maybe something you've said already, but in the interest of, like, fostering conversations between everyone in this space. I like leaving a couple of minutes at the end for any. Just messages or, you know, parting words for this industry. Give. And especially with you. And given your experience and what you've seen in terms of the hype and the ups and downs, you know, sometimes we do need elder statesmen in the room to sort of talk, you know, about how things really are.

Glenn Behrman 00:55:46:

Well, I think that the most important thing is that if somebody decides to go into this business, I think the first thing they need to do is go sit in the room by yourself and ask yourself, why am I doing this? You know, and if your response is for the money. Well, for anything other than, you know what I mean, to build a nice business that you can enjoy and just in, you know, do something good for yourself and your community.

Harry Duran 00:56:14:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:56:14:

Don't do it. I mean, it's as simple as that. This is not a throw the money. This is not a put the seed in the ground and take the money to the bank. Yeah. It just doesn't work that way.

Harry Duran 00:56:25:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:56:25:

You know, and network and ask questions, you know, and listen.

Harry Duran 00:56:30:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:56:30:

You know, and just, you know, do your homework and do your research and, you know, spend 10 minutes behind the head after the headline, you know what I mean? And find out what's really going on. That's, you know, but more important than anything, the most important thing, you know, is to whatever you do with it, honesty and integrity, you know, look in the mirror and like what you see.

Harry Duran 00:56:58:

I think some people probably have a challenge with just that, that part of the instructions. And I think it's important, you know.

Glenn Behrman 00:57:05:

And Harry, you know, gotta believe, and I'm not gonna throw any stone, but you gotta believe that a lot of my thinking of who I want to be as a human being.

Harry Duran 00:57:18:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:57:19:

Is based on some anecdotal evidence. Okay. You know, that I've seen other people do things that I just don't want to be that person.

Harry Duran 00:57:29:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:57:31:

You know, so.

Harry Duran 00:57:33:

Well, it's been a fascinating insight into your world, Glenn, and I'm glad we finally made the time to have this conversation. And you've got a lot of experience and a lot of stories and been through that school of hard knocks several times, I might imagine, to get to where you are. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. I really enjoyed it. And I think you have a lot of wisdom for this industry and I hope people pay attention to what you have to say because, I mean, you've seen what works and what Doesn't. But I think giving people the unvarnished truth, I think is more important at the end of the day, so people don't get into other hype cycles down the line.

Glenn Behrman 00:58:07:

Yeah, well, there's. They're out there, that's for sure. Everybody's found that. Everybody found their sweet spot.

Harry Duran 00:58:13:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:58:14:

You know, and it's a shame because, like I say, people just, you know, social media is not a good thing.

Harry Duran 00:58:22:

Hmm.

Glenn Behrman 00:58:23:

You know, but anyway, look, you know, my door is open, you know, as long as people come to me the right way.

Harry Duran 00:58:30:

Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:58:31:

I'll give them five minutes. You know what I mean? But if they come the wrong way, it's just far too many.

Harry Duran 00:58:40:

What's the best way for folks to get in contact with you?

Glenn Behrman 00:58:42:

Email.

Harry Duran 00:58:43:

Email. Okay. We'll make sure that's. We'll put it in the show notes. I think we've got that. And make sure people can get.

Glenn Behrman 00:58:48:

Yeah, no, I'll. I'm more than happy to help if somebody is sincere, you know. Harry, was good talking to you. Thanks.

Harry Duran 00:58:55:

Yeah, likewise. I'm looking. When's your next conference?

Glenn Behrman 00:58:57:

Oh, green tech.

Harry Duran 00:58:58:

Oh, green tech. Yeah.

Glenn Behrman 00:59:00:

Yeah, green tech. And then after green tech, I'm taking a week and just. I'm going to Marseille.

Harry Duran 00:59:07:

Oh, nice.

Glenn Behrman 00:59:08:

And to Provence.

Harry Duran 00:59:09:

That sounds nice.

Glenn Behrman 00:59:11:

My wife is me. The show ends on Thursday and my wife is meeting me. I'm meeting my wife in Paris.

Harry Duran 00:59:17:

That's beautiful.

Glenn Behrman 00:59:17: W

e're taking a weekend traveling around France.

Harry Duran 00:59:19:

Oh, that's gonna be nice. Well, say hi to Separate, because Sepper is going to be out there.

Glenn Behrman 00:59:23:

Yeah, definitely.

Harry Duran 00:59:23:

Yeah. And I know he wants to connect with you as well, so I appreciate your time, Glenn.

Glenn Behrman 00:59:27:

Okay, thank you.