174: The Hidden Power of Steam in Indoor Farming

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:00:00:

If you have the wrong diseases or the wrong weeds in the soil, that soil has to be trucked away to a landfill. Extremely expensive and not really sustainable. So they came to us and said, you guys have this method of steaming soil. Can you help us in the construction business? So that's our, you know, that's what we entered into that kind of business with big like stationary machine, which we place in the project and use like a front fold, front wheel roller to load the machine with soil. And then it goes through the machine, comes out in the other end and you can fit wherever you want.

Harry Duran 00:00:35: So.

Hans Christian Gresham, thank you so much for joining me on the vertical farming podcast.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:00:40:

Thanks a lot for having me.

Harry Duran 00:00:42:

Yeah. So we started the conversation and I realized I hadn't pressed record. So it's always. Sometimes it's interesting that the pre call chat and you mentioned that you found out about the show by a ChatGPT search.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:00:54:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was kind of interesting because we just moved into the vertical farming market. You have been doing working with soil before. And I did, I asked ChatGPT, you know, what's the most popular show like podcast for vertical farming? And you came out. Congrats.

Harry Duran 00:01:10:

It's always nice to know that the SEO does work. So where is the home for you?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:01:17:

It's in north of Europe and Scandinavia. Norway. So far from where you are at the moment?

Harry Duran 00:01:23:

I'm in Minnesota, so we get a lot of Scandinavians in Minnesota, I think because of the similar climate. Lots of ice fishing and lots of dips in the lake. I took my first plunge in a frozen lake earlier this year and it was. I don't know if it's normal for you, but it was a jarring experience for me.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:01:41:

Well, all about, you know, taking a bath in cold water is a big thing these days, isn't it? So. And we are familiar with that.

Harry Duran 00:01:49:

Yeah. Did you grow up there?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:01:51:

Well, yeah, yeah. I'm born and raised in Norway at the farm, of course, and that's the background. So. But yeah, living my whole life in Norway.

Harry Duran 00:01:58:

Yeah. And so did you come from a farming background in your family?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:02:03:

Yes, my father was a farmer. But in Norway we have lots of small farmers. I mean, in the US you have both, I guess, but here there are many small farmers and my father was one of the small ones. So he had, you know, two jobs. So he had a farm in the evenings and stuff like that. And then he was on a regular job during normal days.

Harry Duran 00:02:20:

Yeah. I think what I've noticed as I've had these conversations. I speak to folks in indoor farming, but interestingly, a lot of them come from a traditional farming background. And I don't know if it's the same with you growing up, but there's a level of discipline and ethic, work ethic, I think, from growing up on a farm that you get. And I noticed that as a trend. And I wonder if that was like the same for you.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:02:44:

Totally. I mean, one of the reasons that I did not take my education in farming was that I saw how much work it was. I mean, these guys and not very well paid either. So they worked really hard and more hours than, you know, what's common today, I think. And. But there was, you know, constantly on work and. And the work at the farm was kind of the hobby, right?

Harry Duran 00:03:06:

Yeah, yeah. And so you went in a different direction. You went to business school.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:03:11:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:03:12:

What was your thought there when you went. Did you think you were going to be working in a different industry?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:03:17:

Well, yes and no. I think I have more talent in that direction. And in the same way as, you know, I was not the oldest son of my father, so, you know, it was natural that other ones took over the farm. So it was many reasons that I didn't, you know, you know, continue in that direction. But I always been fascinated by, you know, the farming business. I mean, today I think it's fantastic to see, you know, how even my small garden, you know, how one potato gets to 15 potatoes and the whole natural world, agriculture.

Harry Duran 00:03:45:

Yeah.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:03:45:

Thing. Yeah, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:03:48:

I can relate to that as well. We were just chatting about in the pre. Talk that I'm in Minnesota and there's a lot of Scandinavians here, so it's, you know, similar climates. But I think as someone who grew up in New York, you know, and has lived in the city, New York City, I've lived in la. You know, there's an interesting quality of life that you come to appreciate more. We have a little bit more land now, so we're planting. And like you said, you're taking the eyes of the potatoes, putting them in the ground, and some magically, like the potatoes appear and it's really like, you know, I think if you don't have that connection to your food, you're just think that you go to the grocery store and food comes from shelves. You learn, you know. My partner's father's a hunter. He's hunted. He's hunted deer. He's gone fishing in Alaska. He's hunted turkey. So it's given me just a newfound appreciation for the connection to food, which I think is something that kind of you were speaking to.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:04:40:

Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think also you are coming back to that, I mean after many years so, you know, growth and you know, really strong industries and industrial farming, stuff like that. I think that you have seen for the last five or ten years that we are coming more back to natural agriculture, you know, to understand the value of soil, treat it well, because it's not going. I mean soil is something that, you know, you don't get it back first. Wasted, right?

Harry Duran 00:05:05:

Yeah, yeah. So I imagine you had a lot of experience with the soil growing up. Is there any like memory that you remember as a child from the farm?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:05:13:

Well, yeah, I mean I'm used to, you know, spend vacation stuff like that working on that farm. Even though when I was even more older, like 16, 17, 18. And that was also my first experience with steam because my father started this just seed that he had problems with the soil long before all the pesticides. You know, today the pesticides industry has is under pressure. A big list in 2000 had a big list of pesticides available. Today it's much more limited. But still even with that big list there were like harmful organisms and things in the soil which the chemicals couldn't fix. So my father started to do, you know, lots of trials finding new ways of combating those harmful organisms. And steam was one of the solutions that they tried out. So yeah, I spent many, many summers, you know, walking behind, you know, this very simple prototype and where he actually was steaming the soil.

Harry Duran 00:06:11:

Where did that idea come from? Is that something that's like historically been done? I'm just curious where that idea comes from.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:06:16:

It's really interesting because when they started I thought there was kind of pioneers that they, you know, they were fantastic that you know, discovered this. But today after working with this like for 10, 15 years now I know that you know, in the US and also in Europe they have the farmers have been steaming soil since the 1800 something 1880, you can find all books. I mean when you used to have libraries, you can find books there. Yeah, I remember that you can find books there about, you know, lots of research that's been done and actually I have been working quite closely with professor in UC Davis in California, which is called Steven Fenimore, they call him Steam Fenimore and he has been working on steam almost his entire career in USA Davis. So this is something that people know.

Harry Duran 00:07:01:

Works and what was the mechanism? I'm sure there's pictures of some of the devices from there. But how is the steam being generated and how is it being like, was it being piped into the soil?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:07:13:

The steam generators is more or less the same as they were in the 1890s. You know, it's not much different. It's the same thing.

Harry Duran 00:07:19:

You boil water, steam engines.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:07:22: So.

But everything around that, I mean, everything from how we inject the steam into the soil and all of that, that's more, you know, high tech and censoring and how to document everything and, you know, the computer system to steer everything and all of that is brand new. But the basics of the old steam generator are exactly the same.

Harry Duran 00:07:44:

So talk to me about the story of Soil Steam and how, you know, you got involved and decided that this is something that you wanted to come back to the farm, so to speak.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:07:53:

Well, I think it's a fascinating story because I went to university to study economics, but I followed their trials with the steam machine every summer. So I came back even in weekends to see, you know, because it worked. I remember we had. They were steaming with this simple equipment. They steam like 3 met, 3 meter broad, like channel back in the farm. And. And that 3 meter broad stripe stand black soil for year after year. The weed come on both sides and you know, it's spread in vibrants after that, after a while. But you can see that stripe for like maybe 8 to 10 years. So it really could fight the weeds and also other organisms in the soil. And the interesting part is that when you plant something in it, when the soil cools down and you can plant, you know, carrot or strawberries or potatoes, whatever you want, you'll see that it grows even better than before you steamed. So that was the beginning. And I followed them and I helped them. Since I had my education within economics, I helped them with some funding. And they made pretty good prototypes based on, you know, tree farmers with, you know, they had some skills within, you know, fixing on machine stuff like that. So they made some simple prototypes and I helped them with some, with the financing and, and they even involved some researchers, some universities to come and take and check the soil and see that it worked very well. The pesticides were, the weeds were gone, the harmful organisms were gone and things were brewing. So they came to a certain level and they had some kind of simple prototype. And then my father died in 2013, 2014 in that. Yeah, around there. So. And then I had my other career. So I didn't pay much attention to the actually soy steam business at that time. But in 2016, my father in Law retired in Sweden. My wife is Swedish.

Harry Duran 00:09:44:

Okay.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:09:45:

And he was one of the best welders in Sweden. So he was responsible for lots of the welding at Rolls Royce factory where they make the jet engines.

Harry Duran 00:09:54:

Oh, wow.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:09:56:

And the funny thing was that at the moment when he quit, Rolls Royce was almost about to have to stop production because they didn't have anyone with good enough skills. So me and my wife were sitting and discussing and saying, oh, it's ironic, right, because you're on top of the career, you have all this knowledge, you have all the experience, you have done all the wrong things and the right things and then you stop working. And then my wife said, you know, this is exactly the same thing has happened with your father. They had built up something, everything was there and it stopped. And I said, yeah, that's right. Maybe we should take it up. And that's what. Then I called up my father's two old friends and they started up all over again in 2017. And they said, we have been working on this for 15 years and you're, you know, old men. We can back you up, we can give you all the knowledge, but you have to run the show and find, you know, do the work.

Harry Duran 00:10:48:

So. So they had stopped the company.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:10:50:

They had the company, so they didn't have much. They put a lot of effort into that. All their money almost, and lots of hours. And they said, we think it's a stupid idea to leave it, but we canno continue work as we have done. So, you know, you take it, you know, to the next level. We will back you up, but you have to do the work.

Harry Duran 00:11:11:

Did you know what you were signing up for?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:11:13:

No idea. I mean, I guess if you talk to like, people who, you know, start to develop. Nobody has developed these machines before. Right. So if I knew that, I think we never started, but we thought we were pretty close. Right. So that's why. Yeah, we were hanging in there.

Harry Duran 00:11:28:

What was that conversation like with your father in law? Because he had retired and I thought he probably thought he was going to be like relaxing on the beaches now and just enjoying.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:11:38:

No, I remember he, you know, he was, you know, offered a hell of a lot of extra pain and stuff like that, but he was finished. I mean, he was retired, but they found that. They found a solution. So he had an overlapping thing. So Rolls Royce are still making the jet engines.

Harry Duran 00:11:50:

Oh, really? Okay. And how helpful was he in helping you understand what the new version of the.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:11:59: Well, when we started, you know, with a new team, we involved like Some good engineers. We had some 3D CAD modeling guys, some software guys, we had some mechanics. So we brought in a wider team, you know, to sit down together with the old farmers and discuss, you know, how should we develop this kind of machine. We know this work, we know this work. What's not working, how can we take it forward? So we established this working group and started to make like at that time we were still working a lot on, you know, open fields, so steaming strawberry fields or whatever, but. And made like big huge machines which actually did the job, but still not anything ready for like serial production. There were still prototypes building, right?

Harry Duran 00:12:45:

Yeah. And so those early machines were they self propelled or they had navigation.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:12:51:

Now that one guy had to be there and control them. So but they, you know, they could dry by themselves, but you have to control them and turn them around, stuff like that. And you know, steaming is fantastic way of heating up soil, but still it's so much soil. And the capacity of a machine is it moves pretty slowly. Right. So it's not a good, it's not very economic to have like one operator and by the machine. So the ones that you have in our engineers are working on now are robots. Right. But they are again regulated. So we understood on the way that, you know, it's a big market for treating soil to get rid of all these, you know, harmful organisms and weeds and everything in open fields.

Harry Duran 00:13:29:

Yeah.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:13:30:

But it's still a lot of work to do to develop the correct machine. So. And at the same time we were contacted by some of the biggest road builders, road and railroad builders here in Guanavia because they had problems with soil in their project. So in big road projects.

Harry Duran 00:13:49:

Oh wow.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:13:50:

If you have the wrong diseases or the wrong weeds in the soil, that soil has to be trucked away to a landfill. Extremely expensive and not really sustainable. So they came to us and said, you guys have this method of steaming soil. Can you help us in the construction business? So that's our, you know, that's why we entered into that kind of business with big like stationary machine which you place in the project and you and use like a front roll, front wheel roller to load the machine with soil. And then it goes through the machine comes out in the other end and you can put wherever you want.

Harry Duran 00:14:27:

Hmm, I bet that's a market you hadn't even thought of.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:14:30:

That's how it is. I mean, we started to work. It's a funny thing because it started to work with farmers like in open fields. And then this thing take us to the Construction business, which we now deliver machines to. But when we had this machine for a construction business, some of the big indoor farmers in Europe came to us and said, you know, that machine treats soil. Couldn't that machine also treat substrates? That was a long start to get into the substrate or nutri farming business.

Harry Duran 00:15:03:

That's so interesting. I'm curious about the timing of when you treat the soil. Do you treat it before you plant it or can you be planting the crops? Because it would kill anything that was planted already. Right, okay.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:15:14:

You have to do pre one day or two before. I mean, the nature of soil and also substrate is that, you know, stores the heat pretty well, so it keeps warm for soil is better than substrate. But the soil can go from 90C down to like 20C in 24 hours. So the day after, two days after, you can grow whatever you want in the soil, but you have to wait for that. And you cannot steam the soil while the plantings or vegetables are there.

Harry Duran 00:15:41:

Yeah, you kill the. Well, now I'm thinking about my own garden. Are people doing this at the residential elements?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:15:48:

We had quite a few people contacting us about that as well. So there are people that have almost as big problems as the farmers with their private homes and gardens.

Harry Duran 00:15:58:

Well, every little, you know, as a gardener, every little bit you can do helps. And we plant sometimes and we get the weeds. And you're like, oh, I got to get in there with the weeds. And you know, if they sell vacuum cleaners that have the vacuum cleaner companies like Bissell, they sell steam cleaners. And it seems like that could be a short jump, you know, to create a soil steam.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:16:17:

But we have now both. We have now customers in Norway, which Norway, Sweden and Northern Europe, which have natural, like construction soil, which they always steam before deliver, because then they can guarantee to the customers that this is weed free. You don't have any weeds in this soil. And that's a pretty strong market for us, actually.

Harry Duran 00:16:39:

Smart. Yeah. All these different markets that you didn't envision when you started. So I'm curious, when they came to you with the substrate issue, how much did you know about the world of indoor farming?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:16:53:

Well, not much, because indoor farming is extremely small in northern Europe. I mean, Holland and Belgium and Italy, Spain are huge in this market. But modern Europe is pretty small, so it's not a big industry up here. So the people that contacted us the first time was from Holland, Belgium. So. But when they started, you know, to discuss this with us, we understood. Of course, we started to do some investigations and Found that, you know, first of all, substrate is much more easy to treat than soil. In soil we have stones. You have, I mean, in a road project you have like scrape, you have like metal, you have all kinds of things. So much more easy to treat like the substrate. So we knew it would be easier to get, you know, the heat up and everything that we need. But we believed it was a small market in the beginning. But then, you know, these guys said, you know, you should come down to Holland to visit us and see, you know, the farms here. So we did that. And then we also started to do the investigations and we saw, you know, it's a. I think in the surface rate market they say it's 80 million cubics at the moment and it's supposed to grow to 250 million in 20 years. So it's a massive market, of course.

Harry Duran 00:18:02:

Yeah. What was the biggest surprise or aha for you, like, as you started to see, you know, going to Holland, obviously the pioneers in greenhouse technology and a lot of people in the indoor farming space, especially vertical farms, you know, are learning a hard lesson that maybe we should pay attention to what the pioneers and greenhouses have been doing. So what were you learning when you, on those first visits?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:18:25:

Well, I mean, you believe, I mean, you know, hearing everything about, you know, technology in the world and, you know, you believe that the farming is, you know, far behind. And when you go down and meet these guys, and at the same time, I've been visiting Driscolls in California also and you get pretty. I mean, you understand that nothing is, you know, they have control and everything. So how much moisture it is in the material and how much irrigation you should have today because it's another day today and yesterday, the sun outside, the lightning, even somebody now without any sun because everything is locked in the warehouse to control. So you have, I mean, yeah, these cars are professionals. Nothing left for, you know, they don't take any risk on anything. And the interesting part is actually a few of the first ones who contacted us was not contacting us because they wanted to recycle substrates. They contacted us because they wanted to steam the substrate before they took it in the first time to have control. Be 100% sure that this is clean. Yeah, so, I mean, that's how these guys are working. I mean, nothing. They cannot take a risk on anything. If you have one disease in that cocoa choir or whatever you get, if something can happen, means it comes from Sri Lanka and it can go by boat, what happens all this distance. So these guys wanted to treat it before they started to use it the first time.

Harry Duran 00:19:44:

That's so fascinating. I mean, obviously coming into this, when I started the show, there's a lot that I was just learning from the conversations and just learning how this issue with substrates is now a challenge because, you know, you just assume that if they're purchasing something that it's going to be clean, that it's going to be sanitized. But what you discovered and what I'm learning as well is that's not the case. And I think doing it even before first use. And so you were at Driscoll's, which is obviously one of the biggest, if not the biggest, strawberry producer here. Interesting to see that they were having these challenges as well.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:20:18:

Yeah, but that was on the earliest, actually. We were running our machines. We are in dialogue with Driscolls now as well about indoor production of strawberries. But at that time we were working in their outdoor fields about steaming the soil in organics, strawberry, stuff like that. So you have dock they have done several tests in their test farms together with Use Davis to prove that steam works as well as the pesticides and the chemicals that they have available.

Harry Duran 00:20:44:

Yeah. And so you've done tests already because I saw that you've got some posts on the site that you've shown how you're encouraging farmers not to reuse the substrates. Because now with this technology, I think in the past there was probably a concern with all the pathogens. And there's again, it's so interesting to learn. But the pathogens you mentioned there are Pythium and Fusarium. Could you talk a little bit? I'm sure it's a part of an education process for you too, but can you talk a little bit about the specific pathogens that, you know, people may not be aware of?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:21:15:

Well, I mean, we have been steaming, like I said, for Griskov and for many other berry farmers around, and done trials and done, I mean, documentation. And like you said, you know, fasadium and also in tomatoes is the same. Right. But what we know is that together with several different universities, including the Musa Davis and also locally here in Scandinavia, we have been testing exactly how high temperature and for how long we need to heat up the soil in order to kill all these organisms. So we know, for instance, that, you know, some of the. Some weeds can take. I mean, like some seeds from weeds are difficult to kill. You have to go up to more than 90C for maybe five or 10 minutes. While many organisms and fungi and nematodes and Those things dies at maybe 60 or 65, 70ac, which means that, you know, then we use a lot less energy, it goes faster to treat it, stuff like that. So the most important thing is that we have lots of documentation that, you know, I can show you that, you know, fisodium needs this temperature at this time. And then with our machine we can control the temperature and time totally within the machine. So we know that at this level 0% survives. So meaning that when we go 3 degrees higher and 1 minute longer, there are no one is going to survive. So that's the whole basics of our system. We have documented that the machine can take it as long as we get a temporary time. And then when you go above that, nothing survives.

Harry Duran 00:22:44:

I'm curious on the soil side, how do you find that balance? Because there are nutrients or spores and you know, mycelium, that's helpful for soil. Right. And so how does that balance?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:22:55:

Well, going back to, you know, when my father was working on this in early 2000 when he went to the university, you know, asked this guy, you know, we're going to, going to start, you know, like steaming soil. And these guys now say, no, you shouldn't do that. You know, you will kill the good organism in the soil. You know, I would be worried about that, you know, but today we are working at so many different universities and all of these guys say, you know, I mean, especially within glassal farming or vertical farming, these guys can add whatever they want. The only thing which they really, really need is a clean media to grow in. And that's something we can guarantee. So it was a big questions a long time ago, both with soil, but I mean, but not so much with substrate because these guys know that the only, you have some structure things, you have some, you know, how to keep the water, stuff like that also within the structure and with the substrate. But the most important thing is that it is 100% clean. So yeah, but we have done several tests and I mean steaming soil, I can show you pictures of them in beautiful fields where we are splitting the field. So we have one part which is steamed, one part which is not steam. And you can see how it boosts in the steam tact. It's beautiful. I mean steam works and not only works, it gives better harvest than non steam in open fields.

Harry Duran 00:24:17:

I guess at some point there's some regeneration that happens, right? And it comes, the healthy organisms eventually come back.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:24:23:

We have done tests on that as well. We did that with a carrot farmer. We brought out the scientists out in the Field. We steamed the field and they went into the field after steaming and saw that, you know, both good and bad organisms were gone totally just an hour after. And when they came back two weeks later, they found that 80% of the natural soil borne life was backed. So we got rid of the harmful origin that was there and the natural life was back two weeks after. It comes from surroundings, from the soil beneath and stuff like that.

Harry Duran 00:24:54:

Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they've said that mushrooms, that fungi is the world's largest organism, I think, because, you know, when they've done analysis and studies of how deep it goes underground and how they communicate with each other. So, you know, I'm sure that's part of what's happening there.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:25:11:

Yeah, I suppose so, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:25:14:

So as you started to become more aware of the indoor farming market in vertical farming, have you started to attend conferences and speak to indoor farmers?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:25:21:

Yeah, we have. But first we went to one conference where we met. This is called Proof Center Hoekstrapen, which is in Belgium, which is the. It's the biggest. It's the consortium of all berry growers, all strawberry growers in Belgium. And then we met this guy called Peter Remelis, which is one of the head of research there. And he said, you know, it's fascinating, I've seen what you have done with steam and I think it's very interesting. But we have tried before with no success. So we said, you know, I would like to do it again because it's a really push for us to do something about recycling our substrate. But I won't give you too much, I won't be too optimistic because we have tried before, but we also had many things that people had done before. So we said, you know, let's it a try. So we sent one machine, one of our smaller machines to Belgium in February this year. 100% electric. So it's pretty cool machine. So most soil steaming is energy consumption. You know, we need a lot of energy, but this one is electric. So we use that one in Hofstraten. So also very good to see a foot to footprint and things which are more and more important to the farmers. Of course we steam the backstro 10, 10 cubics of soil over substrates which was used before, 50% was used one time before and 50% was used four times before. And then the research at Hofstatten made different blends. So hundred percent like clean new substrate, 100% recycled substrate and even the substrate without any treatment. So reused again without steaming. And then after Only a couple of weeks. They saw that the sprouts and everything of the steamed substrate performed very well. So they say, I don't, I don't want to give it too much hope, but it seems so far that, you know, the substrate that had been used before and not steamed is going slow, it grows slow and we can see that, you know, it's a hard time, but from the new substrate and the steam substrate, we cannot see a difference. So we would continue following like two week reports coming up. And then we saw, could not see. He was measuring roots development, measuring color, measuring, you know, all the things that they do. And of course the most important shelf time and harvest. And when that was finished, that was actually finished. We got most of the data. It was not totally finished, but we got most of the data before. Greentech is the huge fair, I think it is. Both in the US and in Europe.

Harry Duran 00:27:52:

They do green tech Americas. Yeah, yeah.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:27:54:

So we got it actually right in time for that. So we knew that, you know, this is, you know, something that can be recycled. We can offer our, you know, the customers to a meeting that, you know, this is possible especially within strawberries because we have the proof now. And again when the report came the week after, it showed that they could not, that it was not even in some of the tests they did, the steam substrate performed better, you had bit higher harvest and the shell time was the same. So. And again, I think this is of course fantastic news for us as a company. But I think also, I mean, we met some of the biggest substrate producers in Amsterdam as well and they go, you know, I was curious on how they would, you know, act when they heard that, you know, it's possible. But the interesting part was that what we saw is that these guys, you know, were kind of positive. I mean, they say it's no way that we can produce this much. I mean, if the market turns to 250 million cubes in 20 years, nobody knows how to get there. So I don't believe that you can recycle like 100%. You always need to mix a little bit and stuff like that. But if we can take a part of that so the farmer can be more, you know, self sufficient of what he already has on the farm, he can buy in a little extra to speed up the recycle substrate. I think you have a fantastic combination.

Harry Duran 00:29:14:

Yeah, there's gotta be some cost savings, right, with like being able to recycle.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:29:18:

That's of course, I mean, you can talk about sustainability and you can, you know, all of this is very good. I've been speaking to so many different farmers and everything and everybody agrees that, you know, the sustainable sustainability thing is important. But if it's no saving money, it's impossible, then somebody has to, you know, to make up for that. So. And I mean, yeah, we say that we can recycle one cube of the substrate at the cost of maybe five to ten dollars. And I don't know if, yeah, the prices in Europe is, I think the prices in US actually higher. What I learned the other day, especially in strawberries in Florida, but I don't know, but Approximately something between 50 and 60, 70, $80 per cube.

Harry Duran 00:29:59:

Okay.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:30:00:

And also, I mean during COVID I learned that, you know, many farmers were stressed and didn't get delivery stuff like that. So they want to be self sufficient. They want to be able to keep as much as possible within their own farm. So I think that we can, I mean by recycling 50% of the substrate or more, you can save a lot of money.

Harry Duran 00:30:21:

So are you still doing a lot of traveling, visiting farms?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:30:23:

That's what I like. I mean, like I said, I come from a farm. I know these guys, I like these guys because I mean hard working guys and there are, I mean there are so many cool things within agriculture and. But still these guys are more like, yeah, but we have to do what, you know, what you know, you have to solve our problems. I mean you can have lots of AI, you can have a measuring on harvest, you can have lots of cool things. But in the end of the day, the growing media must be good and the plants must be, you know, doing well there.

Harry Duran 00:30:50:

Yeah, yeah, that's the most important thing. I saw that. It looks like you recently changed roles. You went from CEO to csm, is that correct? Yeah. What drove that decision?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:31:02:

Well, I mean all CEOs knows that, you know, it's more, you have to organize a lot, you have to know to be working with people, right?

Harry Duran 00:31:11:

Yeah.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:31:11:

And I'm not a really patient guy. I want, you know, to move forward and I need to see thinking progress, you know, so it was all natural. I mean we got hands on, you know, extremely good people, which has reputations on doing this and handling big companies and also like ours, like a growing company. And I'm much better on working on, you know, with farmers, with our customers and regulators and people around the company. So that was a good decision.

Harry Duran 00:31:38:

What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:31:40:

Oh, wow. Well, that's a good one. I mean you always have to ask an entrepreneur, you know, I always, I mean I see so many possibilities. Like you have been through a few of them already and we have still our, you know, open field machine who can, you know, run around in the field and steam the soil and make fantastic conditions to grow vegetables or berries. But we have stopped that because you know, we have to focus on the other concept, the container based concept. So and that's pity because I know I talk to these guys, I talk to many of the big ones in the U.S. i talk to them here in Europe, all over the place and they say no, why can't you just, you know, bring message in? We want to buy it. So these decisions, you know, to focus instead of, you know, going wide and trying to. That is hard decisions. I mean I've spoken to farmers, you know, sitting, coming in from the field in the evening, having, having meetings with us and are desperate because they have potato cyst nematode and the whole field is infected. They can't do anything. I mean they're sitting there in a sweat and warm and you know, and I see they have big problems and I know we have machines which could help them but they are not commercialized. They're not ready yet.

Harry Duran 00:32:53:

Yeah, yeah. Because you see their pain and you know what they're going through and that's their livelihood as well. So I think it's got to be frustrating.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:33:01:

I was down in Spain, I mean California is huge in strawberries. Driscolls on these guys. Spain is also, I mean in, down in Uelva. It's a huge strawberry area and almost like Watsonville strawberries everywhere. And then I met these farmers, you know, again coming in from the farm and they're sitting down and they are under a lot of pressure now because they are, they have some chemicals. Metam sodium is common in strawberry but they are under a lot of pressure from the EU commission. So they have only like the commission says every year that next year is finished. So they never know that they are getting one more permit and one more permit like for next year. But they are always under pressure and they're stressed. You know, this is the life. And they know that steam can replace methane but we don't have machines ready. So I mean, yes, you understand what you're saying, but at the moment we can't in fact help you. So that's, that's a sad thing.

Harry Duran 00:33:58:

What's the timeline look like for that then?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:34:00:

At the moment we parked it because you know, now we have these machines up and running and like we have and I totally agree in the decision because we have people from all over the world coming here now to buy our containerist machines for steaming. So we have this demo day in the end of month and we have people from all parts of the world coming and none actually from the U.S. but we have two or three from Canada, we have people from Mexico. So it's a lot. It's the correct decision to focus on these machines because it would be too much to try to go for everything. But I think we will not do anything more with the development of this open field stinning within at least two years.

Harry Duran 00:34:41:

It sounds like that probably needs to be spun off as a separate division.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:34:44:

It could have been. I mean we haven't discussed that as well, but because we have so much knowledge and insight into it. But we only have like seven, eight engineers and they are focusing on totally on the other machine.

Harry Duran 00:34:55:

And then the decision to focus on the container as the form factor I think is smart because obviously within indoor farming everybody knows about containers, container farms. But the. There's a reason for that, you know, probably makes shipping so much easier.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:35:08:

Shipping easier. And also in that form in that machine we have total control. I mean you pour this soil in in one amp and it goes through a system where we have sensors and computer system to control everything. So we have full control and it's. So it's much more easy. So if we started with other machine first, you probably still be striving to get it ready for the market. So it was a cute decision. It was almost ready. And when we focused with all our, you know, engineers on that machine, we got it ready. Yeah, two years ago.

Harry Duran 00:35:37:

So if we're having this conversation a year from now, where do you think you'll be and what type of progress.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:35:44:

Would you like to make for the container based concept? We will be definitely in North America, but we will are starting on Canada also about, you know, lots of things going on now with taxes and everything. So as a European company it's much more easy to get into Canada and we also have lots of interest there. So we will start up by having machines there and people there. So when you send a machine over, we will also have technicians in the market to control that market and even salesman. And then we have three different sizes of machines. So we have like huge machine for the big construction project and the really big substrate farmers which can, you know, treat 30, 40 cubic per hour. But then you also have small machines for farmers which you know, again this industry is so focused on that. I Don't want us to share machines because, you know, I don't want to have your pathogens in my. So they want their own machinery.

Harry Duran 00:36:38:

Yeah.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:36:38:

And then we need a small machinery for, I mean smaller farmers which has, you know, maybe 400, 500 cubes per year so they can have their own machine at a pretty good reasonable price and also be able to recycle. So yeah, so I think it will be in North America, it will be wide over in Europe and it'll be both within the construction business here in projects, stuff like that in northern Europe and, but even more within indoor farming. But I hope maybe not in one year, but maybe in two year we also will be in the U.S. okay.

Harry Duran 00:37:12:

Sounds like you have an ambitious roadmap. But it sounds like there's a big demand.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:37:16:

Yeah, yeah, totally. I think what we call a no brainer, I mean it's sustainability and cost saving and we have documentation that it works. So what more can you ask for? We will pay them this machine in one year.

Harry Duran 00:37:26:

Yeah. Are you going to start to make yourselves more visible in conferences like Greentech More?

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:37:33:

Yes, but also on the, more conferencing more for the, you know, for the researchers. We are going to the, it's a huge one in Europe now in September, which is a substrate conference only. So it's only like, you know, professors, doctors within the industry which are there and of course we need to be there to show them, you know, that we have made this possible now because they are the start for, you know, to develop this market and get into people trust what they see. When these guys have been, you know, testing the equipment.

Harry Duran 00:38:04:

Just when you think that there's the most niche market and then they all have conferences and there's a conference just.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:38:10:

For some street is crazy. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I'm going to a strawberry conference in Holland in September as well.

Harry Duran 00:38:18:

Okay. Well, I really appreciate you reaching out, Hans. I think this is fascinating. You know, I love learning this, my audience loves learning this. All the different ways, you know, to see what's happening in the space and technologies that were meant for traditional ag now making their way and then, you know, into the indoor farming space, I think is fascinating. So it's been so interesting to hear your journey as well. You know, growing up on a farm, not imagining that you would be returning to the farm and now you're like, now you're working in new technologies like indoor farming. So I imagine it's been interesting when you look back, you know, sometimes you're in the day to day. It's hard to see the progress, but sometimes you look back and you're like, wow, I can't believe this is the journey that I've been on. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:39:02:

Yeah, well, yeah, thanks a lot. It was. It's also very nice talking to you as well and I hope that we can catch up when we a year or two ahead and then we can have a new chat about if the machines are in the market in the US or not.

Harry Duran 00:39:16:

Well, I'm definitely going to make it to GreenTech. I keep saying we actually we discussed.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:39:21:

A couple of weeks ago if we not should go to the greentech in Mexico as well. So both Holland and Mexico next time. So then they maybe can catch up.

Harry Duran 00:39:29:

Yeah, for sure. Where's the best place for folks to the website is soilsteam. Com.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:39:33:

Solsteam. Com, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:39:36:

Solstem. Com. Yeah. And so we'll have that link in the show notes and I'll provide a link to your LinkedIn as well in case people want to reach out and.

Hans Kristian Westrum 00:39:42:

Fantastic. Thanks a lot. Thanks, Ari.

Harry Duran 00:39:44:

Yeah. I appreciate your time. Thank you.