175: Advanced Aeroponics & Why Vertical Farming’s Future Lies in Glasshouses

Harry Duran 00:00:00:

So, Charlie Guy, CEO of Let Us Grow, thank you so much for joining me on round two of the vertical farming podcast.

Charlie Guy 00:00:07:

Thanks, Harry. Pleasure. Yeah, it's been a little while since we caught up.

Harry Duran 00:00:11:

Yeah. You were looking at the calendar. It looks like 2021.

Charlie Guy 00:00:15:

Yeah. Apparently 2021 back in the. Yeah. Slightly different time for the industry, I guess.

Harry Duran 00:00:21:

Slightly different time probably for the world as well.

Charlie Guy 00:00:23:

Yeah, for the world, yeah. Very good point, Ben. Yeah, I'm not sure where I was when we did the recording, but, yeah, things were quite restricted back then.

Harry Duran 00:00:35:

So I'm just curious if you think about the environment for vertical farming, because, I mean, I guess it's what you would call the heyday and the hype and the buzz around vertical farming. Lots of investment coming in, lots of interest, and I'm sure that's some of the stuff you were noticing as well. So how would you describe the biggest shift, you know, over the past, you know, was it four, four plus years, what you've seen? Big picture. Then we could just dive in deeper into what's been happening on your side.

Charlie Guy 00:01:04:

Yeah, I mean, what's been the biggest shift? Probably consolidation and. Yeah, a real shift in investor confidence. Maybe confidence is over the top, but investor activity. Yeah, Real change in attitudes to the industry. I guess it's, you know, as I see, it's all. It's all pretty natural in the evolution of new technologies and new industries. You know, it's well documented, the hype curve, the Gardner hype cycle is. Yeah, it's very well documented. It's interesting to have lived through it, I guess, as a business. Come out the other side. Maybe still be coming out the other side. We can probably debate where the sort of ends of that are, but, yeah, to still be evolving and innovating and iterating within vertical farming, but to have, yeah, substantially broadened our reach outside of that, you know, quite small, nascent, I guess, industry, and to have really expanded our reach into glass houses, which are a much larger existing segment at the moment.

Harry Duran 00:02:11:

So as someone who's running a company in this space and in this environment, in this challenging environment, how do you manage a team like that or navigate through these choppy waters? And what were some of the challenges you faced, you know, as you were making that transition?

Charlie Guy 00:02:26:

Yeah, I mean, there's been many. If we're talking about. As far as the last time I was on the show with you, I mean, that was Covid. There were enough challenges just throwing up through running a business through that period that were pretty. I think the word Unprecedented was thrown around a lot. But then yeah, map on the sort of rapidly evolving and changing shape of the vertical farming industry. It makes for, I guess keeping you on your toes as a founder and business owner every single day. Which, you know, anyone running a sort of high impact, high growth business is on their toes. But when you put those sort of macro factors and some of the other macro factors that we've been dealing with on top of that, yeah, this led to quite a lot of just a need to be flexible, I guess some of the things that we've done and you know, we've had to make some hard decisions at different points in our journey but I guess more recently. So we used to have a software product which we developed in house called Astara Control System Monitoring Platform. And yeah, we've actually spun that into a separate business now which is focused on systems for mid tech. So polytunnels, glass houses using the technology that we developed to let us grow. But applying that in a massive ready market that's in need of, well, just has a much greater need for some of the savings that you can get from automation. So decisions like that have enabled us to evolve and survive as a business. The Astara technology team are now doing very well as a separate entity and yeah, we've just had to be very adaptive within that funding environment.

Harry Duran 00:04:01:

And so for folks that are not familiar with Let Us grow, can you talk about what the new business model is, who the offerings for and how that shifted?

Charlie Guy 00:04:10:

Yes, at our core we are an aeroponics company. So we've developed a massively scalable way of growing aeroponically for those that are new to aeroponics. I did a quick intro. Hydroponics, well known, I'd hope to, to most people listening to your show. In aeroponics we take that nutrient solution and we turn it into a fine mist and we feed the roots with that. The reason we do that is to increase oxygenation in the root zone, provide much healthier, happier roots. Happy roots equals happy shoots is one of the things most growers know very well and that enables the plants to grow. Yeah, in a more resilient way. Faster we get about 20% yield, uplift, ebb and flood, hydroponic systems, all things kept equal. And that is the focus of Lettuce Grow is on being, you know, the best aeroponics company in the world developing aeroponic systems that are scalable in both greenhouses and vertical farms. And the reason we focus on that is aeroponics has been well documented, well known to provide advantages to the plant. But before us, and before our innovations in the industry, it was very difficult to scale aeroponic systems. People have done it by throwing a lot of money at it. But you can't really get around the fundamental issues that you are firing a nutrient solution through a small nozzle, a small aperture. And when you do that, over time, those nozzles get clogged with nutrients and you run into operational issues. Whether it's around cleaning or clogging of the nozzles, you just run into these issues which lead to system performance not being acceptable for industrial use cases. So we took that problem and we've now been working for almost 10 years to bring to market solutions at hectare scale that enable you to get the benefits of aeroponics with the simplicity of a hydroponic system. And that's where we're at.

Harry Duran 00:06:05:

That's what you're advertising as advanced aeroponics now.

Charlie Guy 00:06:09:

Yeah, advanced aeroponics. The technology within that hour, I guess. Core product is the aeroponic rolling bench. So rolling bench architectures are widely used in the greenhouse industry. We've taken that and we've integrated our advanced aeroponics technology into the rolling bench platform. That means that we can partner with the likes of numerous Dutch large greenhouse builders and system builders, the likes of KG Systems, HTVaboom and others that we haven't yet been able to announce to deliver these systems in partnership. So we provide the smarts, the technology, but the people that enable the growers to access this are partners and they deliver it on our behalf. So it really means that we remain very focused on the core of what we do, let us grow and we collaborate heavily with other existing industry players that have decades of experience in building and delivering systems in greenhouses and vertical farms to enable the growers to get those advantages.

Harry Duran 00:07:17:

So can you talk a little bit about the transition to glasshouses? Because you mentioned that was a shift in the business approach. And obviously the writing on the wall was probably showing you that there was something you needed to consider. But I'm curious thinking about it as the leader of the company, and it's probably not something you made a decision lightheartedly, so you put some thought into that. And I'm curious, you know, how your thinking goes into something like that.

Charlie Guy 00:07:42:

Yeah, I mean, it was over five years ago that we started that work and that transition. I guess you talk about the writing beyond the wall. My background is in renewable energy and energy systems. And this is pre Ukraine, pre some of the other macro factors that had huge impacts on energy prices, especially here in Europe, that we were already seeing this huge sensitivity in any vertical farming models that we built, any local farms we operated, any that we worked with. This huge sensitivity to energy price and energy access. And I've always said, I hope it's on the last episode that hopefully there's me saying on the last episode that I've always said there's no point in doing vertical farming unless it's powered by renewable energy. There is no point burning fossil fuels to convert fossil fuels into electrons to power lights to grow plants. That doesn't make sense from an environmental standpoint. So it doesn't really make sense from a resource standpoint. When the sun is free. I guess it has been something that we had aspirations to do from the very early days of let us grow, but to prove the value and the efficacy of aeroponics. Actually the best medium and format to do that in is a vertical farm. Because you've got control of all of the parameters, you've got control of the lights, you've got control of the temperature, the humidity, everything around that. Yes, you could do that on a single layer. But you know, we were also able to show that we could do it on multi layer systems. So it's actually the control of the environment that you get in a vertical farm. Which is why we launched our aeroponics through the vertical farming industry. Because we control the environment. We could prove categorically that we had these advantages. That didn't mean when we went to the Dutch market that they believed us. So that was the journey, I guess that took quite a few years of proving that out. And we went to work with Wageningen University, who had the world leading organization in controlled environments, glass houses, to work with them to show that aeroponics could outperform hydroponics. And yeah, we were, I guess, met with some concern initially. And actually those concerns were the same concerns I said about earlier that people had with aeroponics is that the systems work well for a while and then they break and they fall over. It's the operational concerns. That's the fear that most growers that have grown aeroponics because aeroponics isn't new. NASA started working on it back in the 80s, but that's the issue that everyone's ran into. And there was this sort of hangover of high pressure aeroponics systems that meant that growers just didn't trust that aeroponics would work for them. And that's something all of that is what we had to work in to get into the greenhouse industry as well. And the yield uplift that we've shown, demonstrated numerous times in academic and commercial side by side trials that took a while to sort of. Yeah. To get people on board with that and for them to run those trials. But then seeing as believing that's usually what we say with our technology, when people actually run it side by side and they see the results, then they see the healthier routes that you get with aeroponics, that's when. Yeah, when people started paying much more interest. And that sort of introducing a new technology to the greenhouse industry does take time. Yeah, it's not easy. It requires new. Yeah, lots of trials and different scale trials and validation and we're seeing the consolidation. I mentioned the difficulties that vertical farming has faced. You see that as well in the greenhouse industry. There's lots of new technologies which are brilliant technologies but they're very, very hard to commercialize.

Harry Duran 00:11:40:

And so obviously you spend a lot of time now at Greentech and I saw a couple of the write ups your team did on the blog and you actually biked to the. It looks like the team biked to the conference as well.

Charlie Guy 00:11:50:

Yeah, it's something we've become pretty renowned for and it gets bigger and better each year. We have partners along with us. We have, yeah. Different industry, you know, groups and partners joining us. So yeah, we cycle from the UK over to green tech and Amsterdam and we pick people up along the way. We drop in and some, you know, this year we dropped in acres who have been trialing our technology recently. So yeah, we're able to sort of use that to add a bit more, I guess, excitement and fun to the beginning of green tech. Not that it needs anymore, but for us it also, you know, started as an idea from one of our team members just saying, is it possible? Not really from a marketing perspective, more just because.

Harry Duran 00:12:34:

How long is that ride?

Charlie Guy 00:12:35:

It is two days from London. So we do one day, London to Harwich, which is the port. Then we get the boat over from Harrods to the look of Holland and then it's a really nice. Well, not always really nice. Yeah, when the weather's nice it's glorious. And last year the weather was.

Harry Duran 00:12:52:

Yeah, so you're just stopping in at inns along the way.

Charlie Guy 00:12:57:

We were just heading down actually when it rained. But yeah, it's a great initiative and if anyone is listening and interested, we've had some people say they would fly from the US to the UK just to cycle with us next year. I'm not going to hold anyone to that. But yeah, we'd love to. We're always. Yeah. To increase it. So anyone that's interested do. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:13:16:

Is it possible to just do that one way? So then I was thinking about maybe doing that and then leaving from Amsterdam. So.

Charlie Guy 00:13:21:

Yes. We don't tend to cycle back after, you know, the Green Tech week. It's pretty rough, it's pretty difficult. Some people cycle back, but yeah, generally we organize transport for people and bikes to get back. So yeah, it's. We make it as accessible as we can. We had some first time cytos with us this year, so. Yeah. And then some highly proficient cyclists as well. So we got a whole range.

Harry Duran 00:13:44: I'm sure after a week at Green Tech, the last thing you feel like doing is getting on a bicycle.

Charlie Guy 00:13:49:

Yes, exactly. But it's, it's great for me. It really, you know, it personifies our brand. You know, it's what we're about, it's how we do business. Let us grow as well. It's not just the products that we deliver. It's. Yeah. Doing things a bit differently and showing what can be done.

Harry Duran 00:14:05:

Talk to me about the experiences at GreenTech because I imagine, I don't know how long you've been going there, but I, you know, it's probably evolved more over the years as you now have a solution for this industry and you're obviously in the heart of glasshouse country. So I'm curious what those conversations look like. And I saw that you also moderated and chaired a panel on Farm Tech Society panel at the conference as well.

Charlie Guy 00:14:30:

Yeah. So I guess how long have we been going. We've been going to Green Tech for coming up to a decade, not quite a decade, but I think my first year I went was 2017 or 18. And yeah, I guess I was on a panel there last year as well. And I don't know if the decision already made, but I did say it's probably about time we actually move on from having a dedicated vertical farming space. I've got to be careful what I say on this podcast with how this is framed, but I'll explain what I meant by that. And actually what I've seen through the years is that instead of, you know, for a few, maybe five or so years, there was a vertical farming pavilion. And that was brilliant to bring together the. Those working in the industry. But actually what we've seen is vertical farming as a method become much more integrated into the offerings of different businesses that are at GreenTech. And therefore instead of it being seen as an industry at greentech or a subset of the industry. It's more of a growing methodology that should be applied in the right way by the right businesses. And that to me is a really positive evolution and a positive story to tell. That actually there's a. Yeah. By having that presence for a few years there's then actually an established view of where vertical farming fits into the picture. The wider controlled environment agriculture picture, which means that it didn't really need its own space anymore. And it means that companies can like us, I guess, offer to the vertical farming part of the market, but also to the glasshouse plan market and to hybrid systems that may use both vertical farms for propagation and then glass houses to grow out as an example.

Harry Duran 00:16:20:

It seems like you're making a more concerted effort to also build those relationships and those bridges with governments and agencies. I know that you mentioned in your blog post that you connected with the British Embassy and the Department for Business and Trade as well. You know, can you talk a little bit about why maybe just broadening your reach and providing some more of that education for folks that might benefit from it would be. Is helpful.

Charlie Guy 00:16:44:

Yeah, it's always been part of what we do. I think the reasons behind that I guess are partly around why we started Let Us Grow. And it's about, you know, improving the environmental footprint of fresh produce on a national and global scale. And that's why, you know, you reference some of this with UK bodies that we work with and are supported by and yeah, reducing you know, the waste, the carbon footprint of fresh produce. That's why we started Let Us Grow. And to do that it's I guess my. The point I was talking about earlier with energy is a really good one to actually be impacting an industry on a system level. It's not just, you know, you and your corner with your company, you need to be working across industries. So energy is an example, looking at co location, looking at planning, looking at regulations, looking at different incentive structures for energy businesses and plant growing businesses. And to do that you need to be engaged with different organizations at a governmental level to, to be able to influence that. And so that's I guess why we're involved in those conversations. Because to have that large scale impact on both the quality and the form of subset and the glass house industry control of our agriculture as we refer to it, then you need to be. Yeah, you need to be having those sort of policy level conversations and different regions are obviously moving at different rates and globally and that's an interesting dynamic to be seen of observing and being.

Harry Duran 00:18:26:

Part of how much of it is an education process for them. And, you know, in these conversations, are they surprised at what's possible? Obviously, that's not the only thing that's on their docket. I imagine there's a bit of a learning curve, but I'm. Are they encouraged by what they see when they start having these conversations with you?

Charlie Guy 00:18:45:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the positioning of. In many ways, our positioning, you know, we now have a. The vertical farming research center that I'm in at the moment. We have our Glass House Research center, which is just down the road from here in Bristol. And bringing people to both of those environments, actually, you know, one after the other helps show that integration of the product across both parts of the industry. So I think that's really important as an education piece for those that are further away from industry, you know, those that may be in either investment or the government positions, those that work on policy. Because all of the hype and then the fallout of the sort of vertical farming boom and let's call it a burst that has had ramifications and people remember headlines. So a lot of what, you know, companies like ourselves that are more integrated across greenhouses and vertical farming is doing is actually in some ways repairing some of that message and educating people about the realities of it and the value of the different technologies and where they have value and where they don't have as much value. And I think that's a really important part of educating people in this consolidated industry that is more hybridized and is using vertical farming as a tool, as a methodology where it adds value.

Harry Duran 00:20:10:

Yeah. If they only see the headlines, then they're not getting the full picture. And I think the other part that you're doing that I like a lot is the community outreach. So can you talk to me a little bit about what you're doing with the Bristol Basil Company as well?

Charlie Guy 00:20:21:

Yeah. So this is not fully launched yet, but I'm just thinking whether I'm going to get told off by our marketing team.

Harry Duran 00:20:29:

You can say, just say what you can.

Charlie Guy 00:20:32:

So, no, no, we've been soft launching it, but it's a great initiative that we set up this year and we're supplying to a local pizza chain in Bristol from our greenhouse, week in, week out, using our technology. And some people, you know, there was a few years ago, it was like a strong position to take on, whether you're a grower or a tech company. Grower or a tech company. We're a tech company. Just to be really clear and this is all about for us being part of our local food system here in Bristol. I'm proud of Bristolian, grew up here, went to university here and yeah, I want to make sure that we're giving back to our food community. That is one element of it, that's the community element. But for us it's a lot more about product development, data learning, improving the system, iterating in that commercial environment and being able to bring people to the site and show them the product, show them how it works in a greenhouse environment. So yeah, you know, some people might look at that and go, let us grow. Moving into being a basil grower. Yeah, we're not doing that, but it's a great local initiative that we're operating and yeah, we'd love to sort of show other growers in the uk globally what's possible with those sort of local food system impact. And it doesn't, I guess a lot of the messaging, the value is really similar to when we were selling container farms. Yes, it's very similar. People that we're working with, people that want to be growing for their local community. But we're showing that doesn't need to be done in a container farm. Yeah, could be, Absolutely could be. But it could also be done in a greenhouse. You could get a greenhouse that the one that we're growing in laid idle for around 10 years. The growers used to run a pot, a potting plant business there and overnight they just turned it off. They said this isn't for us anymore. And we've taken that and we've breathed new life into the structure. It's not the highest tech greenhouse you've ever seen, but we've put high tech growing from an intuit. And we're now, you know, the pizza chain that we're providing for out of season, they were buying from Kenya. It's about 6,000 mile journey now that Basel travels six miles. And so that's the sort of local food narrative that I'm super passionate about. It's been really energizing for me, really energizing for our team to be work on that initiative. And I hope that we're just showing people what's possible in their local community. You know, someone maybe I imagine those people listening that probably drive past disused greenhouses.

Harry Duran 00:23:13:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Guy 00:23:14:

On their commute. What is that, what is that place? That old greenhouse? Like, what's that doing? And you can actually turn that into a productive growth that is profitable and is giving back to your local food community. And that message, I guess this is where I really, I think the vertical farming excitement, and let's call it the hype as we have, but the excitement, the inspiration that's brought people, what we're actually trying to do is take some of that energy and say, well, you can achieve a lot of the same outcomes with a slightly lower tech structure like a greenhouse, or if it's right for you and you've got really cheap energy, you bring your energy supply, then plug it into your plug your plug your full scene or dancing vertical farming and be growing the best produce year round with the least water and the most consistent produce that can be doing, because that's what you get from a vertical farm.

Harry Duran 00:24:13:

And it's such a great story, especially for the local shops like the pizza shop, to be able to advertise that. And it's also educating the consumer too, because, you know, when I first got into the podcast, you know, I barely even paid attention to what was on the back of the clamshell or the back of the bag. And here in the States, it's all coming from Salinas, 3,000 miles, you know, and you don't think about that except you see the lettuce wilting in two days and you're wondering why. So now, like, you know, little efforts like this remind people that, you know, it probably pays to, you know, pay attention to where your food is coming from. You mentioned 6,000 miles from Kenya. I bet you none of the folks would even know that in the shop. So I think it's wonderful to like be part of that education process as well.

Charlie Guy 00:24:56:

Yeah, I don't think people are aware of that. They really aren't here in the uk. Like, it's. Most of our produce does come from Europe, but that's still, you know, if it's southern Spain, that's still thousands of miles at least. If it's coming from there, it's coming on a truck and it's coming on a boat, it's not coming on a plane. But when people hear that their herbs out of season are being flown from Kenya or other places in Africa, usually they're pretty shocked. And it's extremely common to look at the supermarket label here in the UK and it says Kenya on herbs and that. And this, yeah, comes back to the sort of value proposition of vertical farms at small and large scale. It's why you see farms focusing on these crops, because people do care. Do they care enough to spend more money? Maybe not. Not in the main, but if, yeah, if you've got that cost competitiveness, usually Driven by cheap energy and automation, then absolutely. If you could buy the same product from, you know, just down the road, or the same product that came from Kenya, I'd hope that most people would choose the one from just down the road if they're based in the uk. But you're right, a lot of people don't even look at the pack. They don't pay attention to that, which is, I guess, when it comes back to education and trying to bring more to our size. And that's a big push that we've now got. So we just hosted a. Our annual Open day. It's actually not a very open day. It's inbox only. But we. That was last week and it's an industry event that we put on each year, but we're really looking. And part of my messaging to everyone that joined us on the day was we really want to be opening up the site more, to be bringing more people in, to be helping with that education and raising awareness of what we're doing. I think the sort of urban food movement is an interesting point in the sort of. I guess in the time that I've been part of it and I just saw that the New York sort of agtech Collective, I think, is the name sort of evolving and changing. And I think that's. There was a real sadness to me to see what looked like a sort of. Yeah, quite a change in how they're operating because there's been so many fantastic initiatives like that around the world. And I think the macro environment we're in at the moment is definitely causing people to be thinking about other factors in their lives. And food is sadly going down the agenda a little bit, even though it, you know, at a macro level is more important than ever when we're thinking about climate and health and all the other factors.

Harry Duran 00:27:40:

I hadn't been following them. I was, you know, watching their progress when I first got started. Are they winding down the New York Tech Collective or are they changing the direction?

Charlie Guy 00:27:52:

The impression I got was winding down. I haven't actually. It's fresh news. I haven't spoken to any of them involved in it, I'm sure. Yeah. Henry.

Harry Duran 00:27:59:

Yeah.

Charlie Guy 00:27:59:

Be able to give you. Henry Gordon Smith. Be able to give an update on what.

Harry Duran 00:28:02:

He just relocated to New York, so.

Charlie Guy 00:28:04:

I'm sure some other people would as.

Harry Duran 00:28:05:

Well talk to me about the experience on BBC Radios for me today. That seems like some good exposure.

Charlie Guy 00:28:12:

Yeah, that was a few weeks ago. So it was salad week for BBC Radio 4. So Farming Today, for those that don't know is, yeah, daily program goes out quarter to six in the morning, so prime farm time. Yeah, they visited a number of different growers around the UK growing different salads. And as part of that, you know, our work with Bristol Basilco and some of the other salads we're growing on site, we're showcasing the future of growing and how we do things using our advanced aeroponics. So, yeah, good exposure. And again, part of that education piece, part of raising awareness, part of, yeah, showing what can be done, a big push and customer pull for us is the fact that our system doesn't use any peat. So we're not relying on peat as a growing media, which the majority of commercial horde culture is, and the UK is. Slash was leading the way in terms of legislation on this globally, and I hope that we still will be in taking peat out of the. Or banning peat outright in horticultural products because of its carbon intensity. And we see ourselves as a technology that can support the industry to do that. So we're pretty agnostic in terms of the types of growing media we use. We can use coconut fiber, we can use hemp, we can use jute, we can use all sorts of natural fibers, because in aeroponics, actually, you're much less reliant on the growing media. So we can actually grow media free in certain crops and certain products, which partly means you've got a cleaner product, means you're cheaper because you don't have any growing media, have less growing media to pay for and you've got a biodegradable growing media at the end of the day. So, yeah, actually a lot of the focus of the whole salad week that Radio 4 was covering was on people's efforts to remove peat from the process. Alongside the troubles of our season this year for outdoor growers, in terms of the heat that we've had, it's been the hottest summer on record, I'm sure. Yeah, that's being said every other year at the moment. But, yeah, the. You know, we've had areas of the UK in drought. The landscape is pretty barren out there and farmers have really struggled. The last few weeks. It's been torrential rain, but we've had a summer of extremes, of, yeah, extreme dryness. So they were the main challenges being talked about throughout the week. And of course, if you're growing in a protected environment, if you're growing in a way that uses recirculating water systems, as we do, if you're growing in a way that doesn't rely on peat, as we do Then yeah, hopefully we're aim to sort of educate and be leading on that conversation around how we can really transition away from older grown techniques to more sustainable but actually more resilient growing techniques for the farmer at the end of the day, ones that you can rely on more for a more stable income. Obviously that's predicated by being able to invest in the capital required to stand up a greenhouse or a vertical farm. But that then gives you that reliability and that year after year predictability for what you're seeing.

Harry Duran 00:31:31:

It's been good exposure for folks that may have not been keeping tabs on what's happening in the controlled environment space as well.

Charlie Guy 00:31:38:

Yeah, I hope so. We've had some good interest from it and yeah, it's one of those that always has a long tail of exposure. So yeah, we're always looking opportunities to put ourselves out there and yeah, so.

Harry Duran 00:31:52:

For folks that are listening greenhouses, anyone that could see themselves partnering with let us grow. Who makes for an ideal partner or what do you look for, you know, and who would benefit the most from having a conversation with you?

Charlie Guy 00:32:06:

Yeah, there's, I guess there's two types that, that we work with. There's existing growers, so anyone that's using rolling bench systems or rolling tables as some people call them, or rolling containers as other people call them, anyone that's using the rolling bench architecture already in a greenhouse or in a vertical file, and anyone that's doing that is likely to be growing using ebb and flood hydroponics. And for us, we're seeing a lot of issues with those systems in terms of roots getting waterlogged. And typically, you know, a grower will try and adjust for that by putting pumping oxygen into the solution or adjusting their filling and draining times. Just using different, yeah, different ways to try and combat this lack of oxygen. Fundamentally, you're always fighting against it. And we see that with disease pressure with some of the growers that we work with. So we're getting a lot of interest from spinach growers who are struggling with pythium and other sort of fungal diseases in the root. What we've shown with our aeroponic system is actually because of the healthier roots, because of the increase in oxygenation, the plant is much more resilient against those sorts of diseases. And some of the academic studies that we've done have demonstrated why that is actually, and I won't go into the technicalities of it here, but it's about the plant being able to put more because the roots are healthier putting much more of their energy into shoot growth so they can fight off. Yeah, be much, I guess a bit like having a stronger immune system. That's how I describe it. The plants are more resilient. So, yeah, anyone that's having issues with Pythian, the inevitably flood system, I recommend getting in touch with, especially things like spinach. Anyone's looking to get more out of their flood system. So whether that's. Yeah, lettuce, her leafy herbs, we talked about basil, basil, coriander, cilantro, rocket arugula. I'll stop doing my translations. But anyone that's growing those types of leafy greens, we've shown we can have a benefit. And whether that's a yield benefit or whether we're reducing your losses from disease, then we should have a conversation. So, yeah, retrofitting is simple. With our system, we roll out the hydroponics, we put a power line in and we roll our aeroponics in. So that's I guess, one type and then the other's a new entrance. And for us, yeah, well, I've talked about some of the value proposition of aeroponics in terms of increased yield, reduced water usage, recirculating systems, removing peat from the system, that increased resistance to disease that we've shown. So anyone that's. That those messages resonate with. That's building a new greenhouse or a new vertical farm then. Yeah, be welcome. A conversation there about how aeroponics might work for you.

Harry Duran 00:34:57:

Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure that'll be valuable for folks that are interested in learning more. So I'm curious for you personally, I imagine that the challenges with running a company in this environment are many. But I'm curious. I asked this last time and I always get a different answer. But what's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently?

Charlie Guy 00:35:16:

That's a long. Yeah, a long pause for me or something. What's a tough question I've had to ask myself recently?

Harry Duran 00:35:23:

I think we might need a pint for this one.

Charlie Guy 00:35:26:

Yeah, maybe I should have poured one. You might have to cut some of these thinking periods out. So I think there's always this balance of how much we do ourselves and how much we do in partnership. And we've seen huge benefits of really being clear on what we focus on. Aeroponics, advanced aeroponics and what our partners can focus on. And I guess it's that similar analogy that people make around investment. So, you know, better to have part of the pie and grow the whole pie than try and have all of the pie and be a much smaller pie. And I think that's where we've had a real benefit from collaborating. This isn't really a question, but it's sort of like a philosophical thing that we're working all the time is like how much should we be doing and how much should we work with our partners on? There's the question. I guess so, because it sometimes feels like you're turning down opportunities, but actually what you're doing is you're sharing those opportunities with partners that have experience that you can learn from and that helps move the whole industry forward.

Harry Duran 00:36:39:

I like that approach. So if we're having this conversation, hopefully Sooner than another five years, let's say a year from now, we're September 10, 2026. What would you like to have seen in terms of progress for Let Us Grow?

Charlie Guy 00:36:55:

Yes, we're working on some really exciting projects around the world at the moment. So this year we've delivered projects in Italy, India, Kuwait. Yeah. Projects across Europe, Switzerland, Netherlands, obviously here in the uk. I'm really hoping that we'll have our first US project pretty soon. Whether it's in the US or potentially in Canada. We've got some competing priorities in terms of customer priorities there at the moment, so we'll see who gets there first. So yeah, hopefully we'll have those projects live in the US and Canada giving us a very global footprint for aeroponics. But more importantly, the projects that we've been working on and demonstrating the value of aeroponics this year I really want to be seeing those growers scale up and working with them and yeah, operating those large scale systems using our advanced aeroplane technology across the world. That's where we want to be. And we're on a really good journey too that we've got some really exciting projects in the works at the moment. And the growers that we're working with are all working on either integrations, which are typically not too much effort, but a bit of an engineering application of our teams and their teams to collaborate to bring things together to fit into an existing system and really just working through those two as we plan the scale up of the different projects we're working on. So yeah, that's where we want to be. Large scale glass house aeroplane systems, large scale vertical farming systems around the world. And we've got a really good pipeline to get there now and we've been working through those validations with the growers. So we've got, we can start a very small first trial with people in that setting. And it's really important to be able to show from the technology. And as I said, I think in the beginning of the show seeing is usually believing for growers. So we've got what we refer to as a dev kit, which is a really small scale system that we can get out depending on where you are in the world, but to most places in the world can get out delivered within a month. So that can get people up and growing and understanding the value of our tech. And we then typically work from a small system like that to how we integrate with a much larger project.

Harry Duran 00:39:06:

Have you identified any states in the US yet or you're not at that point?

Charlie Guy 00:39:10:

Yeah, I can't talk specifically about some of the projects we're working on, but again there's. We've talked about some of the macroeconomic benefits of working in different areas, whether that's energy costs or labor costs. But yeah, we've got things underway. I'm actually coming over to the Canadian Greenhouse Conference next month as well. So yeah, I'll be. That's at the Niagara Falls Kavartner Conference Center. So I'll be there at the beginning of October.

Harry Duran 00:39:37:

I'm in the Midwest in Minnesota. So if there's any plans in this region then definitely give me a holler.

Charlie Guy 00:39:44:

Yeah, yeah, definitely will do. Be great to be showing you some of our kit. Yeah. Nearby maybe we could host the next.

Harry Duran 00:39:52:

Episode live from the pub.

Charlie Guy 00:39:56:

Yeah, exactly. I might not pause for as long with that difficult question.

Harry Duran 00:40:00:

So you've got the Canadian Greenhouse Conference coming up. What else on the conference front for you and the team?

Charlie Guy 00:40:07:

Yeah, we've got the Villaqua Farming World Congress coming up. They almost clash. Yeah, quite. I think they're the same week. So some of the team will be there in Europe and I'll be in Canada. We're going out to. Yeah, we've got some Middle east events coming up, Saudi Agricultural show and then we've got a number of sort of in person to smaller events as well. But we're pretty active on the events. I mean it's where, you know, these conversations can start and where they can move forward when, especially for us when we've got, you know, we're standing side by side with some of our delivery partners. We can have those three way conversations very effectively at events. So yeah, we're pretty, pretty active at those. And then yeah, obviously we'll be a green tech.

Harry Duran 00:40:51:

Are you still. Is indoor ADCON still on the docket for you guys?

Charlie Guy 00:40:55:

Indoor adcon? I don't think we've committed yet, but it's highly likely. Ben, our CTO is a regular indoor adcon, so hopefully we'll be there.

Harry Duran 00:41:04:

I think we just missed each other last time. Well, I appreciate the team reaching out and, you know, getting a catch up. There's a lot, lot's been going on and so excited to see, you know, the changes you've made, how you've pivoted in the industry and the success you're having on multiple fronts. I think it's a good and inspirational story for folks that are trying to get a snapshot of what's happening in industry and what's available and what's possible. You know, it's not even if you started within vertical farming, where you can go to from there. And so I'm really glad we had the time to catch up, to get a taste of what's happening in your world.

Charlie Guy 00:41:37:

Yeah, thanks, Harry. It's been really great to catch up and yeah, if people are interested in my viewpoint, having been watching and part of the industry for as long as we have now, then yeah, we're really keen to, to chat about where we see opportunities and where we see potential pitfalls for different growing operations, different growing systems that we're pretty happy to say where we think aeroponics is right for you and sometimes where it's not always right for you. But and the same with local farming and greenhouses and polytunnel farming and other forms of control environments. So, yeah, we're always keen to share our knowledge and really help that, as I said earlier, help grow the whole pie in collaboration because that's really. Yeah, we've seen it working really well for us and we're seeing it working really well for other businesses in the industry that are doing really well at the moment.

Harry Duran 00:42:25:

I've been leaving a couple of minutes at the end of these conversations for any thoughts you have for the indoor farming community, the CEA space, you know, and just in this interest of collaboration and getting more folks to talk to each other and work together. Any thoughts you have, you know, for.

Charlie Guy 00:42:40:

The broader community, I think it's important to dedicate that time to it. And for us, that will be in the form of hosting events, going to events, you know, being out there and having the conversation, the conversations that move things forward. Yeah, it's, I think, and I hope people are past this closed off view and I think a lot of that came through investment pressures and overinflated expectations and yeah, people in boardrooms and shareholders that weren't close to the reality of actually growing fresh produce. So I hope we're past that and I hope that people can see that there's effective ways of collaborating. The work that I guess Infinites are doing at the field lab is a really good testament to that. And I think if you'd look at, yeah, Some of the companies that are then, I guess, regrouping and consolidating after this bust, then you'll see those are the ones that are doing well at the moment. And a lot of that comes through more open collaboration, more open communication. And as we sort of talked about, knowing where you fit into the puzzle, knowing what your bit of the pie is. I think that would be my. Yeah, two pence on that.

Harry Duran 00:44:01:

Well, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate it, Charlie. And let us grow.com anywhere else you want to send folks to learn more, connect with the team.

Charlie Guy 00:44:09:

Typically LinkedIn's a good place to find. Yeah, me and the team, yeah, we're active on all socials, but generally, you know, because we're in the B2B space, it's much more LinkedIn. But yeah, do reach out through the website. Let us grow dot com. You can contact us directly there. We've got forms. Or you can email infoetusgrow.com. yeah, always keen to chat to people that want to find out more about that.

Harry Duran 00:44:33:

We'll make sure all those links are in the show notes as well. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.

Charlie Guy 00:44:37:

Brilliant. Thanks, Harring. Great to talk to you.